From: https://youtube.com/watch?v=gnV6A6L93v4

Context: Throughout this transcript, Bhante Vimalaramsi is the speaker unless otherwise indicated.

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you get started

let's do it uh let me spotlight you here

okay the show is yours delson

all right thank you

so today we're going to be reading 106

and let me take time

reading this particular title here it's

uh

the way to the imperturbable

this is the only suit that where both

the pali and the english

are difficult to pronounce

and you can slip up but uh anyway

first have i heard on one occasion the

blessed one was living in the kuru

country where there was a town of the

kurus named kama sadhama

there the blessed one addressed the

biku's dust because

venerable sir they replied the blessed

one said this

sensual pleasures are impermanent hollow

false deceptive

they are illusory the prattle of fools

sensual pleasures here and now and

sensual pleasures and lives to come

sensual pleasures here and now and

essential pleasures

essential perceptions here and now and

sensual perceptions in life's to come

both alike are mara's realm mara's

domain

mara's bait

mara's hunting ground

an account of them

these evil unwholesome mental states

such as covetousness

ill will and presumption arise

and they can constitute an obstruction

to a noble disciple in training here

so the buddha is laying out the

the hindrances

there are different kinds of

distractions that can arise in the way

of sensory experiences

and what he says is

they are they both including the central

pleasures and sensual perceptions

whether they're here presently or they

will be

arriving in the next moment or whenever

it might be

all of them are considered to be

impermanent are considered to be

illusory considered to be impersonal

and the moment you take them personally

the moment you see this sensual

experience as

me mine or myself

then you are in as he puts it mara's

realm mara's domain you are in mara's

bait or mara's hunting ground

when we think about mara we we usually

or traditionally see him and see that

being as being some sort of a

demon or devil or tempter or whatever it

might be but really he's just a deva

who's uh

was just enjoying um sensual experiences

and his whole point or her old point

depending upon

how you see mara

is

to

to attract people or all beings towards

the sensual realm

um the whole point there is not to get

beyond that and to get beyond that is to

go through the process of jhana when you

get through the process of jhana you

start to become in you start to see

the emptiness of

all sensual experience

because what you see is

the five physical senses

they create through the process of

dependent origination

and experience

and this experience being dependent upon

the five physical sense spaces

is

also impermanent

because of the fact that it's dependent

but when you get into jhana

you come into an experience of seclusion

from sensual pleasures

seclusion from unwholesome states and

when we talk about seclusion from

unwholesome pleasures or sensual

pleasures in general

what we're saying is you're experiencing

a

another level of happiness this is a

super mundane level of happiness that

you experience in the form of pity

and sukkah that is to say joy and

comfort of body tranquility equanimity

and so on from the first jhana onwards

and this experience of the first journal

shows you that there is a joy beyond the

five physical pleasures the five

physical senses

and so you

start to see the emptiness

the hollowness the deceptiveness as the

buddha puts it the illusoriness

of physical sensual pleasures

and it's because of these unwholesome

mental states

uh or rather because of these sensual

pleasures unwholesome mental states

arise

because you identify with the body and

you identify with the physical senses or

you even identify with the mind itself

and you start to covet things or you

start to covet experiences that's

another way of saying

longing or craving

or you have aversion or you have a sense

of identity of who you are and who you

are not

based on your likes and dislikes this

happens through the process of clinging

independent origination

so all of these are dependent upon

sensual and even mental experiences

because as we will see

even ghana can be a state which you can

identify with and cause the mind to

start to cling to and and become

prideful and conceited and all kinds of

things

and this

uh

taking of the jhana personal

this process of identifying with the

jhana causes the mind to stay in that

particular genre because it either

enjoys it too much or thinks that it's

the ultimate when in fact it's still

within the realm of conditioned reality

so the buddha continues he says

therein because a noble disciple

considers thus sensual pleasures here

and now

and sensual pleasures in lives to come

central perceptions here and now

and sensual perceptions in life to come

constitute an obstruction to a noble

disciple in training here

suppose i were to abide with the mind

abundant and exalted having transcended

the world and made a firm determination

with the mind

so in other words here

somebody who is practicing

leading up to the fort china

when we talk about what he's going to be

talking about really is the fourth genre

onwards so he's talking about the

imperturbable

the imperturbable is always referred to

as

in regards to the fourth jhana in

regards to also what is known as

the beautiful

so

here somebody abides with the mind that

is abundant and exalted having

transcended the world meaning having

transcended the sixth sense spaces and

their experiences

by no longer paying attention to contact

uh physical contact and rather staying

with the fortuna which is that super

mundane state

when i do so there will be no more evil

unwholesome mental states such as

covetousness

ill will and presumption in me

and with the abandoning of them my mind

will be unlimited immeasurable and well

developed

now what he's talking about here when he

says once he abandons these different

hindrances you get into a state of jhana

and as you get towards the imperturbable

your mind becomes rid of barriers

your mind flows

it stays with its object of meditation

for quite a long time relatively

speaking before it does get distracted

then you use that whole process of the

six hours to come back again

and then it develops the immeasurable

which is to say it gets ready to become

more expansive

and start to experience infinite space

as we'll see when it radiates

any of the brahmaviharas

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus his mind acquires

confidence in this space

once there is full confidence

he either attains to the imperturbable

now

or else he resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on in the

imperturbable

this because is declared to be

the first way directed to the

imperturbable

so he says

he either attains

to the imperturbable or else he resolves

upon it with wisdom

so

either what happens is you experience

the fortuna and then you take that for

gianna to be me mine or myself

and you really enjoy it you have

self-confidence in it you're really

enjoying it and having this flow of

mind in the fourth ghana as it takes its

object of meditation

keeps the attention on the object of

meditation without any effort

or you see through it and understand

that this fourth jhana is just a step

towards nibana it's not the ultimate

and you see through it which is to say

you see it as being impersonal

you don't take it personally you see it

as impermanent because it arose because

of causes and conditions

it arose because of an intention and

then there was a state in which the

attention was

resting on the object of meditation for

quite some time there was a process in

which the the factors of the previous

jhanas started to dissipate and there

comes this experience of jhana when you

see it in this way the mind doesn't take

it to be personal doesn't take it to be

permanent and moves on either towards

the next level of the imperturbable or

even experiences nibana there can be

there have been pro

situations where even from the first

jhana onwards

upon seeing the jana as being empty of

self upon seeing the jhana as being

impermanent the mind inclines towards

cessation

and by doing so experiences

nibana

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

there are sensual pleasures here and now

and central pleasures in life to come

sensual pleasures hear central

perceptions here and now and central

perceptions in lives to come

whatever material form there is

all material form is the four great

elements and the material form derived

from the four great elements

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus

his mind acquires

confidence in this space

once there is full confidence

he attains

to the imperturbable now or else he

resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on to rebirth in

the imperturbable this because is

declared to be the second way directed

to the imperturbable

what's important to understand here is

that now we are getting into the

territory of what's known as the

arupa-janas

the arupa-janas are also known as the

ayathanas

ayatena means base or realm or sphere

and it also can be in the context of the

sticks sense bases the

salah salat ayathana are basically

the sixth sense bases so the ayatana of

infinite space is what

buddha is talking about here

and why is that because he says

here somebody experiences and

understands sensual pleasures as being

impermanent

sees sensual perceptions being

impermanent

and sees material form as well

being impermanent

so this is a natural process you don't

have to intend upon it in the same way

that you would investigate and analyze

and think about it it happens gradually

it happens naturally when the conditions

are right there will be the experience

of infinite space

and it's done through the experience of

radiating in the six directions

loving-kindness or compassion

when you do this you are no longer

with the physical body

your experience the contact the feeling

the perception the attention

it's now rooted in just the mental realm

now there is only the mentality which is

an experience of the formless rooms the

arupa-janas or the formless ayathanas as

they are called

now if you get attached to this that is

to say you really like it you make this

a big deal and you say this is wonderful

rather than

uh staying with your object what happens

is the mind sees it and says wow this is

amazing this infinite space

that the mind is experiencing is a

wonderful experience and it truly is

but if you make a big deal of out of it

and if you allow the mind to stay

attached to it you're not going to move

on further

and it can happen as the buddha says

that the attachment to this state can

lead

to rebirth in the arupa realm of

infinite space

so one either sees and attains the

imperturbable or experiences it with

wisdom meaning seeing it as being

impermanent and just allows the process

to happen

you see what's happening with the jhana

practice is if you're truly experiencing

it in the way that causes you to release

and let go

there is this meta awareness so to speak

a metacognition so to speak and what

that means is

the mind is watching how the attention

is moving in these different genetic

states whether it's rupa or arupa

rather than watching it being in the

state in other words rather than

experiencing it as a self that is

experiencing this jhana or the

arupa-janas it is just watching

itself it's like mind is watching mind

the attention is just on how attention

moves whether it's from the object

meditation to a hindrance or to seeing a

factory of the janus if you see the

factor of infinite space and

experiencing infinite space

that's one experience but you become

distracted and you have the 6r that just

know that yes there is an experience of

infinite space but returned back to the

experience of radiating loving kindness

or compassion now later on when you

develop the genre you can switch back

and forth and you can see when you are

radiating loving kindness or compassion

and there's a softer gentler feeling

especially with compassion and they

switch your gaze so to speak you switch

your attention to just radiating and

seeing the infinite space you might

actually experience a sense of

that infinite space you'll experience

this sense of floating and an infinitive

of space without any borders it depends

on where your attention is

but in that process of having your

attention on infinite space if you get

attached to it as we said

you will

not progress further and you will just

see that as being the ultimate rather

than letting go and experiencing

a higher state

or experiencing even possibly cessation

and then experiencing nibana

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now and

sensual pleasures in lives to come

sensual perceptions here and now in

sensual perceptions in life to come

material forms here and now and material

forms in lives to come

perceptions are forms here and now and

perceptions of forms in life's to come

both alike are impermanent

what is impermanent is not worth

delighting in

not worth welcoming

not worth holding on to

when he practices in this way and abides

frequently abides thus his mind acquires

confidence in the space

once there is full confidence he either

attains the imperfe imperturbable now

or else he resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death

it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on the rebirth in

the imperturple

this spekus is declared to be the third

way directed to the imperturbable

so now what you are seeing

or what you will see in infinite

consciousness because what he's talking

about now is infinite consciousness

the different arising and passing away

of sensory experiences through the eye

through the ear through the nose to

through the tongue through the skin or

through the mind

and what that means is it's not

happening at the level of the physical

sense basis there is an internal contact

at the level of mind that is perceiving

that is to save mental awareness or

mental consciousnesses

cognizing the arising and passing away

of various sensory consciousnesses

so when you do this this perception of

forms

is not just material form but this

perception of forms is seeing the

flickering

you might see in your periphery of your

mental vision a ring of light and it

starts to scatter or you might start to

see different flickers or concentric

circles

if the formations that are rooted in the

year faculty are stronger maybe you're a

musician or you use your ears more you

might have more refined hearing and the

contact internal contact in the air base

experiences some kind of flickering or

it can happen through the nose you might

smell phantom

odors in fragrances might happen through

the tongue some people experience like

jolts of electricity zipping through the

tongue or even some phantom tastes

some people experience something on the

skin but you have to understand all of

that is mental you might experience heat

you might experience tingling you might

experience

other things all of that is happening in

the mentality its internal contact has

nothing to do with the body

seeing this as impermanent you also see

that the arising and passing away of

these

is not worth holding on to because they

are liable to cause suffering if you

hold on to it

and not worth

seeing as self because in infinite

consciousness when you see the arising

and passing way of consciousnesses

even mental consciousness which is to

say you start to see the gaps between

thoughts

and you start to realize

that this process is not in anyone's

control

it's arising because of causes and

conditions

and it becomes tiresome after a while

but if you hold on to this experience

then you're not going to progress

further

if you take this experience

where you are actually radiating joy

and not looking at radiating joy but

rather your attention is now in all of

these different multifaceted experiences

then you become attached to it and you

think that that's the ultimate

so let go of that see it as being a

process a natural gradual process of

unfolding

what you are doing

invariably when you go through these

processes

is getting to levels of cessation

so what i mean by that is when you see

genres as levels of cessation what

you're seeing

now that we're talking about the

arupa-janas

when we talk about the fourth jhana it

is the cessation

of the experience of the third jhana

and there is a tranquilizing of bodily

formations the breath becomes

imperceptible

your

body becomes lighter you don't really

feel it unless there is some kind of

contact

from the external world unless there's

like a fly hitting your hand or

wind

if you're outside uh rubbing against

your face or whatever it might be

but other than that

there is

no experience of the physicality so it

is the cessation of that when you get to

infinite space there is a cessation of

the experience of the equanimity in

the fourth jana that you experience in

the fourth form ghana the rupa jana

when you get into infinite consciousness

there is a cessation of the perception

of infinite space

and now the compassion that's there in

infinite space

changes to joy and this joy as we talked

about before

it's just joy it's a very contented joy

you talk about it as empathetic joy

sympathetic joy or altruistic joy

so if you hold on to this

the mind might become attached to it and

as the buddha says it is possible that

the evolving consciousness may pass on

to rebirth in this particular realm

but those beings who have

gone through this process and become

attached to it

especially through one pointed

concentration one pointed focus

they see that as the ultimate

a lot of times when you see infinite

space or infinite consciousness that can

be mistaken to be an experience of

unification between

what is considered to be the self and

the universe there is this experience

that is

quite exhilarating quite profound but

ultimately it is in conditioned reality

then he goes on to say

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now in

central pleasures in lives to come

sensual perceptions here and now

and sensual perceptions in lives to come

material forms here and now and material

forms in lives to come

perceptions are form here and now

and perceptions are forms in life's to

come

and perceptions of the imperturbable

input

imperturbable

all our perceptions

when these perceptions cease without

remainder

that is the peaceful that is the sublime

namely the base of nothingness

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides us

his mind acquires confidence in this

space

once there is full confidence he either

attains to the base of nothingness now

or else he resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body

after death it is possible that the

evolving consciousness may pass on to

rebirth in the base of nothingness

this because is declared to be the first

way directed to the base of nothingness

but now the buddha is making a

delineation here and he's talking about

the fourth jana when he's talking about

infinite space and infinite

consciousness he calls that to be the

imperturbable but then he's not going to

talk about nothingness as a separate

category and neither perception or

non-perception as a separate category

but it's important to understand that

all of these are happening within the

realm of

china when it comes to the practice but

when you get to the fourth jhana that is

the base upon which you then experience

infinite space

infinite consciousness

nothingness neither perception

or non-perception

and here what the buddha is saying is

one sees the perceptions

of form one sees in terms of the

perceptions of different kinds of mental

activity that might happen and the

perceptions of the imperturbable and

what that means is

when you get to infinite consciousness

when you see the flickering or whatever

it might be

eventually that slows down and now the

mind becomes more attentive to the gaps

between each flicker and these gaps

are basically the cessation of the

perceptions of the imperturbable the

perception of the syst or the cessation

of the perception of infinite

consciousness

and as the gaps widen you start to get

deeper into or towards the level of

nothingness

and eventually some people have an

experience of just dropping down into

that experience of nothingness some

people see complete slowing down and

stilling of the mind and there is this

pristine

very exquisite exquisite silence that is

the nothingness

now when you are in nothingness

all external realities in terms of the

thoughts about what's happening in the

outside world cease

now the mind she sees within itself now

the mind is

experiencing very deep equanimity which

is tied to the experience of nothingness

now if you take this to be personal that

is to say you make a big deal out of it

and say wow this is amazing i'm just

going to stay here

you won't move forward

but if you allow the mind to naturally

unfold through this process of the

jhanas through the path to nibana

then you get into higher states as we'll

see

or you might experience with wisdom

the experience of cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

right there and then

there are those who have experienced

sensation just by having radiated

equanimity and then at a certain point

in suddenly

everything stopped for a bit and then

they came back online and experienced

nibana they saw the links independent

nation so there are those who have

experienced cessation from nothingness

as well

again because a noble disciple

gone to the forest or to the root of a

tree or to an empty hut considers thus

this is void of a self or of what

belongs to a self

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus his mind acquires

confidence in this space

once there is

full confidence

he either attains

the base of nothingness now or else he

resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body

after death it is possible that the

evolving consciousness may pass on to

rebirth in the base of nothingness

this because is declared to be the

second way directed to the base of

nothingness

now this is an instruction for advanced

practitioners in the sense of buddha is

talking about a noble disciple he talks

about a noble disciple he's talking

about basically the

arya savaka who can be a sort of pana

onwards so when you get to this practice

you can start experimenting with

yourself and one of the pathways

towards the experience of nothingness is

to see the emptiness of all conditioned

reality

it's an experience of anata which

naturally happens

when you see the arising and passing

away of consciousnesses at infinite

consciousness

but it can also be done in a way where

you start to just reflect and see you

don't have to investigate but you're

just observing and seeing it as an

impermanent

process

seeing it as an impersonal process

so some people have a very deep

experience of anata and when they

go sit down for meditation their mind

immediately goes to

the base of nothingness

immediately quiets down and experiences

this deep equanimity so you can try it

for yourself and start to see

the different processes of the mind and

the body start to see the external world

around you and see it as being

impersonal

and when you do it

uh quite consistently

when you see this throughout your day

your mind you see

is very silent very tranquil

it doesn't cling on to anything it

doesn't stick to anything

it just stays in this level of

nothingness it just stays in this base

of nothingness

and in this experience of equanimity

so when this practice is done of the

emptiness of self

it is one way to get to nothingness

there is another way as well as we'll

see

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

i am not anything belonging to anyone

anywhere

nor is there anything belonging to me

and anyone anywhere

when he frequently prac when he

practices in this way and frequently

abides thus

his mind acquires confidence in this

space

once there is full confidence he either

attains to the base of nothingness

now or else he resolves upon it with

wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death

it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on to rebirth in

the base of nothingness

this because is declared to be the third

way directed to the base of nothingness

so when they talk about i am not belong

i am not anything belonging to anyone

anywhere

nor is there anything belonging to me in

anyone anywhere this is a deeper level

of anata a deeper level of experience of

anata and emptiness

that is to say you see the it's not self

of relationships

you see the not self of possessions

you know the the aggravation and the

irritation

the mental movements that arise because

of relationships and things happening in

relationships

even whether they're good bad or

indifferent can cause the mind agitation

in one way or another

but once you start to see that

you know this is not my father this is

not my mother this is not my son

this is not my house this is

this is not my land this is not my

clothes you see it all as just being

having arisen

even your parents even your children

even your friendships even your

relationships all arising because of

various circumstances

as is conditions and choices

and so you unravel those and see

that if you personalize take personal

relationships there is an expectation

and anticipation of it to be a certain

way

this causes mental agitation in the mind

which causes restlessness and anxiety

and all kinds of craving but if you see

this as all being impersonal

you have loving kindness in your

relationships you have compassion in

your relationships you have mudita or

altruistic joy in your relationships

you have equanimity in your

relationships

then

those relationships will not only

flower but they will develop for the

sake of experiencing

deeper happiness

experiencing deeper satisfaction and

ultimately seeing with wisdom

uh the non-attachment to those

relationships

you are content and you have no

expectations and this causes the mind

deep equanimity

when you see it in this way let's use to

say the not self the anata of all

relationships then your experience then

your mind experiences

this base of nothingness so this is one

way to get there as well

now we're going to get into the base of

neither perception nor non-perception

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now and

sensual pleasures in life's to come

sensual perceptions here and now and

sensual perceptions and lives to come

material forms here and now and material

forms in lives to come

perceptions of form here and now and

perceptions of forms in life's to come

perceptions of

the

imperturbable

and perceptions of the base of

nothingness

all are perceptions

where these perceptions cease without

remainder that is the peaceful

that is the sublime

namely the base of neither perception

nor non-perception

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus

his mind acquires confidence in this

space

once there is full confidence

he either attains to the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

now or else he resolves upon it with

wisdom

on dissolution of the body after death

it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on to

the rebirth in

the base of neither perception nor on

perception

this speakers is declared to be the way

directed to the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

so what the buddha really here what we

want to look at is the perceptions of

the imperturbable

and the perceptions of the base of

nothingness

all our perceptions

and when we talk about perception what

we're talking about is the memory aspect

of the mind the mind that recognizes the

mind that notes the mind that labels

when i see this computer screen i

recognize it to be a computer screen

because i have seen it before

it's rooted in memory

so perception is that aspect of the mind

that labels something as this color or

this quality when you have an experience

of feeling

it can be pleasant painful or neutral

and the quality of that feeling of

saying that this feeling is pleasant

that noting of that is perception

in the same way when you are in

jhanas up until the level of nothingness

you have a perception that you are at

the space of infinite space

or at this base of infinite

consciousness or at this space of

nothingness

and you experience along with those the

corresponding brahmaviharas so you have

the perception of compassion and

infinite space

you have the perception of

joy in infinite consciousness and you

have the perception of equanimity in

nothingness these are all perceptions

these are all of recognition of the mind

seeing and cognizing what is present

when you get to neither perception or

non-perception you let go of that

what happens is at this level of

nothingness

there comes a point where

when you're radiating equanimity

that ceases as well

and when you try to radiate again

there's a slight tension

uh felt in the mind in the form of not

wanting to continue doing that now the

mind is very satisfied and ceasing all

of these coarser perceptions

at that point you take the quiet mind

when you take the quiet mind this quiet

mind is just deep collectedness that you

have this quiet mind doesn't have any

quality except of just knowing it being

there

it's there's nothing there there's

nothing to hold on to and so in that

sense there's nothing to perceive

and so when you are in neither

perception or non-perception

there's no recognition going on there's

no memory going on when you're at the

first level of quiet mind so to speak

there might be coarser impressions of

formations you might start to see into

different past lives you might start to

see different images you might start to

see different patterns

but these are very inconsistent sort of

proto thoughts

they're not fully formed they're not

fully recognized

and so you just let them go

and you let them go by letting the mind

automatically

6r

you just release it you keep releasing

and relaxing and the mind gets quieter

and quieter and quieter until there's

nothing but this absolute silence of the

quiet mind

and in that there is no perception

but there's still the perception

that there is

the quiet mind there is still the

perception that there is this stillness

so it's neither perception nor

non-perception

and so if somebody is

experiencing neither perception or

non-perception and then let's say they

become attached to that that

experience

and they

go on and and at death it's quite

possible that the

the rebirth that occurs will happen in

the realm of neither perception or

non-perception and in neither perception

or non-perception there's absolutely

nothing going on there in the weight of

something that can be recognized you

can't fully recognize contact you can't

fully recognize

perception you can't fully recognize

perception you can't really recognize

intention you can't fully recognize any

kind of cognition

but there's still a sense of

awareness of

existence

there's still an awareness of some kind

of consciousness there's still an iota

of awareness tied to the experience of

the

base of either perception non-perception

so what that is is the subtlest

formation of conceit

that formation of i am i exist

that is dependent upon this idea of

there is an self there still

when that is let go of then there is the

experience of cessation of perception

feeling and

consciousness

so when you are in your meditation and

you come upon the quiet mind

see the quiet mind as being impersonal

as well and continue to just be there

there comes a point where the mind might

fluctuate

the attention might fluctuate either it

becomes bored because there's nothing

going on and so it starts to spout out

different things in the way of

restlessness

or uh it got it gets bored and starts to

get dull

and what happens is when it gets dull

certain thoughts come up certain other

objects come up and then eventually

before you know it the mind is now in

slot and torpor

when you have too much energy and

restlessness you balance it out with

slight intention of the enlightenment

factors related to tranquility

so you have the mindfulness you have the

the tranquility you have the equanimity

and you have the collectiveness

if the mind has any kind of slot

intorper you focus your attention a

little bit by having more interest in

the object having more interest in

seeing the quiet mind and this

experience brings about a little bit of

joy

a little bit of that interest from the

investigative factor

and it brings up a little bit of energy

so the mind now becomes sharper

and more attentive to the quiet mind

eventually when everything comes into

balance there is just a full flow of

quiet mind and then because of no more

fuel

or anything to land upon in terms of the

attention because of no more fuel in

terms of the sense of i am

everything is dropped

everything ceases

and there is the experience of cessation

perception

feeling and consciousness

and now the buddha goes on or the suit

that goes on when this was said the

venerable ananda said to the blessed one

venerable sir here beku is practicing

thus

it might not be

and it might not be mine

it will not be

and it will not be mined

what exists

what has come to be

that i am abandoning

thus he obtains equanimity venerable sir

does such a beku attain nibana

so this process of practicing thus he

says it might not be and it might not be

mine it will not be and it will not be

mind what exists what has come to be

that i am abandoning

what he's talking about is formations

he's talking about different kinds of

formations that the mind can clutch onto

oftentimes there might be different

kinds of disconnected thoughts and

patterns and ideas and concepts and then

the mind becomes interested in that as

soon as the mind becomes interested in

that it comes out of neither perception

and non-perception and starts to

follow that line of thinking

when that happens

now you are taking that to be self

you're taking the formation of i am and

personalizing it taking it personal and

now the mind is no longer in equanimity

no longer

elected no longer disenchanted no longer

dispassionate

but if you see these formations arise

and you just let them go use the 6r

process and just let them go then the

mind develops further more refined

equanimity that comes in the form of

disenchantment that comes in the form of

this passion and what exists what has

come to be that i'm abandoning that can

also be extended to be saying

taking

or rather abandoning and letting go

of any kind of idea of a self in any of

the aggregates specifically formations

because at this point in the practice

itself

you only have the mentality in any

formations that arise are just quickly

let go of it's almost automatic as soon

as something arises as soon as you see

the tiniest vibration you just let go of

it

and then you acquire equanimity when you

talk about equanimity here

i'm going to say that it's not the

equanimity you experience in nothingness

it's an equanimity that is in the form

of dispassion disenchantment and

dispassion

so then the buddha says

one biku here ananda might attain nibana

another biku here might not attain

nibana and so ananda asks what is the

cause and reason venerable serve

why one biku here might attain nibana

while another biku here might not attain

nirvana

here ananda ibiku is practicing thus it

might not be and it might not be mine it

will not be and it will not be mine

what exists

what has come to be that i am abandoning

thus he obtains equanimity

he delights

in that equanimity welcomes it and

remains holding on to it

as he does so his consciousness becomes

dependent on it and clings to it

a beku with clinging ananda does not

attain nibana

but venerable sir

when that beku clings what does he cling

to

to the base of neither perception nor

non-perception ananda

when that bhikkhu clings venerable sir

it seems he clings to the best object of

clinging

when that beku clings ananda he clings

to the best object of clinging or this

is the best object of clinging namely

the base of neither perception nor

non-perception

this state is so refined

that

there's

there's still something that can happen

in terms of clinging but once you go

beyond the state there's nothing to

cling on to

but in this state of quiet mind in the

state of neither perception and

non-perception the mind can still

identify with the quiet mind and when

you do that then you are no longer in

the base and you're starting to cling to

that when the mind becomes disenchanted

and dispassionate there is a tendency

there can be a tendency for the mind to

take that as the ultimate and then see

everything as dispassionate but that's

still not the ultimate because it's

still

within conditioned reality

when you cease any kind of

identification with this process whether

it's the quiet mind whether it's the

this enchantment or the dispassion

then there is the natural unfolding the

natural progression into the cessation

of perception feeling and consciousness

and there is no clinging there at all

there's no holding on to anything there

at all

and when one comes out of it one sees

the links the dependent origination

and experiences nirvana

so this is why it's known as the best

object of clinging because it's the most

refined

whether it's in the practice or whether

it's in the realms in the 31 realms of

existence

then the buddha goes on to say here

ananda ebiku is practicing thus

it might not be and it might not be mine

it will not be and it will not be mine

but exists what has come to be

that i am abandoning

thus he obtains

equanimity he does not delight in that

equanimity welcome it or remain holding

to it since he does not do so his

consciousness does not become dependent

on it and does not cling to it

it be crew without clinging on the

attains ibana

so when you let go of the subtlest

formation of conceit the subtlest

formation of i am

then there is experience of cessation

and from that cessation

you start to see something because your

mind becomes so pure

your mindfulness becomes so sharp that

it's starting to starting to see

as the lengths of uh dependent

origination arias and pass away without

attachment without identification and

because of not grasping there is the

experience of ibana

now one uh important piece of advice

here is when you are in the a channel

when you are in need of perception and

non-perception it's important to reflect

back spend a couple of minutes after you

come out of your practice

with your eyes closed start to see just

let the mind intend and retrospectively

look at what happened

when that happens you might start to see

different things and all you have to do

is 6r

this makes the mind more purified and

more clarified and it sharpens the

mindfulness so that it's even sharper

when it experiences the links of

dependent

origination so ananda says

it is wonderful venerable sir it is

marvelous the blessed one indeed has

explained to us the crossing of the

flood independence upon one's support or

another in other words he's saying

you've explained us the way to get to

nibana through this gradual process of

unfolding through these different levels

of cessation dependent upon the other

dependent upon cofactors

what venerables sir what is noble

liberation

here ananda a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now and

central pleasures in lives to come

sensual perceptions here and now and

sensual perceptions in lives to come

perceptions are formed here and now and

perceptions of

forms and lives to come perceptions of

the imperturbable

perceptions of the base of nothingness

and perceptions of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

this is an identity as far as identity

extends

this is the deathless namely the

liberation of the mind through not

clinging as i said

that i am formation this is the identity

as far as identity extends

when you let go of that you experience

the unconditioned

you experience a cessation of all

conditions in the form of perception

feeling and consciousness

and the mind becomes liberated through

not grasping through not clinging so

that noble liberation really is pointing

towards

towards full awakening where the mind

when it comes back online doesn't even

hold on to any of that experience of joy

and relief and seeing it as mine

it just sees that whole process

of impersonal impersonality it sees it

as being impersonal and so when that

happens there's no clinging in the form

of conceit

there's no clinging in the form of

ignorance

and so when those feathers drop and the

other feathers depended upon that drop

that is the restlessness the craving for

form the craving for the formless

and the ignorance obviously

then there is

the complete dissolution of

the the the fetters there is the

completely

uh complete destruction of craving the

complete destruction of identification

and that is the liberation of the mind

through not clinging

thus ananda i have taught the way

directed to the imperturbable

i have taught the way directed to the

base of nothingness i have taught the

way directed to the base of neither

perception or non-perception

i i have taught the crossing of the

flood independence

upon one support or the other i have

taught noble liberation

what should be done for his disciples

out of compassion by a teacher who seeks

their welfare and has compassion for

them that i have done for you

there are these roots of trees these

empty hats

meditate ananda do not delay or else you

will regret it later

this is our instruction

to you

any questions

comments remarks

[Music]

hey delson you might want to

talk about that little um experiment or

um well experiment practice that we did

with you um a few weeks ago how we sat

in a circle

it could be done um perhaps by other

people or at least for them to you know

watch their mind in that way

yeah so what we did was we uh

we sat in a little circle and we went

through

majamenikaya111 but we didn't go through

it

completely what we did was we stopped at

the first jhana

or any of the channels

and picked out the different details

so in there sariputta sees the different

factors of the jaundice he sees for

example in the first jhana he sees the

bitter and bachara he sees

the uh joy he sees the comfort of the

body he sees the

um

well what he sees really is the five

aggregates in the form of mentality

materiality he sees the contact feeling

perception intention attention he sees

mind he sees enthusiasm

he sees the decision

he sees

he sees chana and so on so all of these

different factors

what we did was we started looking at

them and so we read it uh understood it

then went into the practice

we went into the practice

and then we

saw it bit by bit so what you were doing

was

you weren't becoming the jhana

you weren't the mind experiencing the

jhana all it was is seeing how the mind

experiences

as it arises and passes away the contact

seeing the contact of mind with loving

kindness for example seeing the feeling

of loving kindness seeing the perception

of loving kindness seeing how mind

intends towards loving-kindness seeing

how attention stays on loving-kindness

seeing all of these different co-factors

when they arise

the point here is not to look for them

not to investigate in the form of

analyzing and trying to see and

anticipating and expecting them

it's just to see when they arise and

pass away but that seeing the

impermanence of that

one immediately lets go of any

attachment to the janna and goes on to

the next channel so we did this for each

of the four janas and then later on we

did it with another group and we did we

went through each of the

eight genres and um

they all had a wonderful experience i

think david can talk a little bit about

his experience when we did that

oh oh thanks just give it over to me

yeah of course

um

i thought it was really interesting

because

what you did was uh well we set a timer

and you said okay everybody just go into

the first jhana i was like oh sure yeah

i'll just

go right into the first jonah but

in fact you actually did because what

you're doing

is you said

just observe the factors that you had

laid out from the suta

in the jhana you know if there's

unification if there's joy if there's

uh you know any of these other factors

see if that's there and it's almost like

as you watch things the jhana came up by

itself because you were no you weren't

trying

to get it to happen

it was just happening on its own

and it's almost like the mind said oh

okay i'm fine i'll i'll do it for you

you know as long as you don't you know

yell at me or anything

and uh

it did come up and so then we

went around the circle and we talked

about what we saw

and

then he says well okay we're going to do

the second jonah

and um so we did the second john and we

did our 10-minute thing

and

you know one thing i you know i'll point

out to the group which i'll you know i

pointed out to delson and the others was

sometimes when you're first starting

is um

this person

sometimes when you're first

starting

with the meta the meta can kind of come

up to the head

but it's really and you think oh well i

must be the fortunate but no no it's not

you don't just go womb like that there's

a process of going through those

jaundice

and

you know first my the meta was in my

heart and then then it jumped up into my

head

i thought well that's really light and

what happened to the other ones in

between

well then i noticed it kind of went back

down

or or it was there

and but it was changed you know it

changed into a quieter and there's the

second jhana

and then the then you continued another

10 minutes the timer goes off okay and

we talk about it third jonah

and then uh

just watching the mind going on sir

john's not going to come up

well it did and

equanimity was there

quietness the body was kind of

disappeared you know all the factors

were there

and then all of a sudden it just goes

from

down here to goes

[Music]

and then it's up here in the head it was

just such a clear

um moving of the jhana

that it was really helpful to see that

whole process

and i missed the second session so i

can't tell you about the rest the next

day

but um just watching

your process watching your mind and not

necessarily pushing it along was really

helpful

so

anybody else got anything

hey delson

yes

uh this is john mott i'm sorry i have

barking dogs on mute when they uh

when they come up

excuse me um

i'm really interested in and uh one of

those powerful things about the practice

for me has been the insights um

and just sort of the way that the mind

works and

and the way that that intersects with

the world and that's

that's been the most powerful part all

of the stuff that happens that arises

and passes away phenomenon and i don't

even pay attention to that anymore it's

just this layer upon layer upon thing

where i go oh that's how the mic works

oh oh wow there's another thing i needed

to see i'm just curious um

sort of

the insights that you've gained because

you're obviously very far along and i

have a great deal of respect for that

so oh my god you don't

so you want to know the kind of things

that uh i've experienced in the john as

you're saying

that you've gained

well i think the most important insight

here is to see the impersonal nature of

the genre themselves so in other words

you know you don't take it personally

you don't even take the object of

meditation personally it the even the

object of meditation let's say when you

first start out with loving kindness

or if you have uh radiating compassion

or whatever it might be

that arises because of an intention that

arises because of different

arising of causes and conditions that

include the different factors of

mentality materiality but that's all

impersonal as well so even though it

seems like you're you or the self is

intending the loving kindness

just because uh it seems like it is it's

not really you who is doing it

so that comes about later and you start

to see and reflect and understand that

even this process of jhana as long as

you're not pushing as long as you're

allowing it to happen and unfold

naturally you start to get this deeper

insight on in the imperson

into the impersonal nature of jhana

themselves

thank you

you're welcome

delson frank denuzo can you hear me

yes hello thank you thank you for your

talk today as well

uh i have a question regarding you were

talking at one point about having mind

as the object of meditation

and

uh adjusting for

sloth and torpor or restlessness the

opposite

i seem to have uh trouble

at doing that i'm kind of behind the

like three steps behind by the time i

recognize what's going on it's kind of

too late right i've already been

overtaken by

torpor and i and sometimes i can get

back sometimes i can't i have to walk

but i would like for you to

detail a little bit more what you mean

by

take a greater interest in your object

of meditation it sounds so simple and it

seems so easy yet when i'm there and not

so much correct

uh

one example would be

did you have a favorite subject in

school

uh

i do arts the arts

of any type you know

right and when you have a favorite

subject when you do any kind of arts

when you're doing any kind of creativity

uh do you have to do you have to make

like a make an effort to do something or

does it just flow because you have

natural interest in it indeed i've heard

this talked about before it does seem to

just flow it's it's much less it takes

much less effort to do that because

you're enjoying yourself because you

like the subject because you're into the

subject much more yeah

in the same way when you have slot in

torpor or even restlessness it's

happening because of boredom

that's really the underlying factor here

the boredom eventually what happens is

because you come to this very subtle

level of mind

there's no longer any kind of sensory

input

or very little if at all but actually in

a quiet mind it's just all mentality

so because there's nothing going on the

mind isn't used to it the mind is used

to

having all kinds of sensory activity

going on i mean right now there's

millions and millions and millions of

different arising and passing away of

sensory consciousnesses because you're

listening to me you're watching the

screen your mind might be reflecting on

what's going on you're sitting in the

chair and so on and so forth so

so when you come to that quiet mind all

of that dissipates all of that is

quieted down and the mind being used to

that no longer has any stimuli no longer

has any kind of thing that's going on

so when it sees itself it starts to

become disinterested when it becomes

mind watching mind eventually just

becomes bored of that so the way to

bring up that joyful interest the way to

bring up that

interest into your objective uh

meditation in this case being the quiet

mind

is really being able to

first and foremost

when you see that the mind has gone into

slot interpreter that's a good step

because first you recognize that there

is slot interpret present that

immediately brings back your mindfulness

recognizing itself is mindfulness in

action

when you recognize it and you release it

and now you start to have an intention

of just

just tightening a little bit

lightning a little bit your focus your

your attention

on the object of meditation in this case

with the mind so it's like

let's say you know maybe for me for

example when i was in school mathematics

was my least favorite subject and i

wouldn't pay attention to it at all i

had no interest in it at all i didn't

know anything about numbers and

calculus and this and that so i never

really paid attention to it but when it

came to things like literature and

writing my mind was effortless when it

came to just

looking at it because there was a

tightening of attention but when i was

in mathematics class my attention was

all over the place because it had become

so loose

so this tightening of that when you see

when you're doing whatever creative work

you're doing you see there's a there's a

collectedness there there's a collecting

of attention

one thing at a time you're you're doing

one thing at a time but it seems like

it's flowing

so in that same quality of feeling is

that that quality of feeling when i say

tightening your focus a little bit

typing your attention

and if i understood what you just said

recognition is the first step

in that process correct so that's a good

place to start right yes okay yeah as

soon as you

yeah as soon as you recognize you're

already making the effort that effort

then brings up energy brings up a little

bit of interest already because of that

activity it dissipates the slot and

torpor and now all you have to do is

intend

collecting the mind around mind itself

again

beautiful thank you very much nelson

you're welcome

hey let me jump in here with some plugs

here for some of the work we've been

doing with delson over the last few

weeks

as you can see behind me

uh he's been being interviewed by

venerable karuna who's with us under a

different name hi liam how you doing

there he is

and uh we've got uh we did some sessions

with um we just put out 31 planes of

existence

where delson goes through all of the

planes and talks about them we put out

the first one was about his background

and talking about twim

next one was about some upcoming brain

research

that is happening in the netherlands

and uh then we talked about uh

mindfulness and what is really the

meaning of mindfulness and what is twim

and what are the jaundice

um more detail the concentration versus

you know the genres that we know of

um

kind of you know i think delson you're

starting to call them pseudogenis

actually it's kind of an interesting

good name

um and some other things so there's

going to be an about seven different

videos

that are coming out and some of them are

out and just check ponte's channel and

i'm posting everything there and it's

plus it's on our front page

so a lot of interesting stuff plus i'll

add we made a video with most frequently

answered

asked questions frequently answered

frequently asked and answered questions

and we wrote down a whole list combining

a list from our site and the sutta

foundation site and sutavada foundation

site

and anything else we could think of

and

karuna asked elsin his opinion what were

the answers to all those questions like

trying too hard and can't find the

feeling and

and many of those things and and it's

about a half hour i think it's going to

be worthwhile watching

and

sending around to people who are having

difficulty with their meditation

so look for all those videos

anything else from anybody

i have a question

yes

can you hear me

yes i can okay great um and

thanks uh

david and delson i really appreciate

this this is

very very wonderful and i think uh

in delta we have a teacher who has

combined incredible knowledge of the

sutas plus

direct experience and that's

a rare and beautiful thing so thank you

for that and sharing it

not just uh like a pacheco buddha

keeping quiet about been having the

ability to

help other people

so i have a question about um

kind of a follow-up

on frank's uh question

uh what happens with me when i

uh

go

rather deeply into my sitting

is that at some point the 6r kind of

just falls away

because not much is coming up that i'm

perceiving or feeling

and there's a very deep um

satisfaction

i wouldn't

say that there's anything personal

attached to it that i can perceive

but it is

a satisfaction in just

being i will use that word

um are there pitfalls to that or things

perhaps that i'm not seeing

so is your object at that point uh quiet

mind yes

yeah so that's fine i would say that's

totally fine as long as you

don't have any kind of

other personal thoughts related to it so

if your mind just remains

just watching the quiet mind there comes

a point where even the quiet mind kind

of disappears

it becomes very subtle

and uh the mind is just

not landing on any object at all

so that contentment also will go away

and it will become let's say

disenchantment

that this enchantment will also go away

and that will become dispassion

and eventually

you just completely let go of it all so

there's not much you need to do here all

you have to do is continue to watch how

things unfold so just keep sharpening

the mindfulness to be able to see how

contentment transitions

into a quieter and deeper level of quiet

mind to the point that it becomes so

subtle that it's almost not even there

it's almost like

and i i caution myself to use this word

it's almost like there's just pure

awareness there's nothing else

like there's nothing the mind is landing

on right but that awareness itself

should not be considered to be taken as

some kind of a

self or something like that it's just

it's so pristine there's like almost

nothing there you're like looking

through this very very polished glass

and you don't even notice that there's

any glass that you're looking through

when you get to that and that all that

requires is just soft gentle mindfulness

keep doing what you're doing and i would

i would say you need a little more time

to keep that unfolding process from

contentment to

uh disenchantment to dispassion to

cessation

as monty likes to say i'm i'm here now

in damasuka and he has he like to say in

the retreat three hours is good four

hours is better five hours is even

better so if you have the time you know

try to meditate for as long as you can

in one step

wonderful thank you

does may i ask something

yes please

i'm you he knew here and it's

i'm from the netherlands i'm new here i

was looking for the six hours i have

i have one time

one time one evening being with vimela

with bountiful ramsey but i think it is

12 or 13 years

ago

and i did not follow up with this

but um in the meta meditation i did it

in the in another babies with all the

different persons one after the other

but now i have a difficulty because i

was looking

i was look

i i look for the combination from the

new self

and the

the

the sentences

with may i be this may i be that may you

be that we do

so

how to combine i thought it's not

possible to do it in this way or you

have to know that there's not

what you are saying

that you do not mean what you are seeing

um can you

help me with it

yeah

so one thing you have to understand is

when you do this process of may i be

happy may i be well or you tell somebody

else may you be happy and so on these

are all verbalizations that happen in

specifically the first jhana

when you let that go so there comes a

point where you drop all of that and all

you do is just experience the feeling

itself

so this meditation is not just

verbalizing which can help initially in

order to bring up the feeling

as i as far as i understand it in other

kinds of loving kindness practices

they use in some ways the phrases almost

like a mantra but there's not a lot of

feeling going on there might be but

there's not a lot of attention there

so my recommendation is when you start

to feel loving kindness the warmth of

loving kindness

when you verbalize let go of the

verbalization and put your attention and

rest your awareness on the experience of

the feeling itself

and then just watch how that feeling

develops watch how that feeling grows or

changes or whatever it might be this

process of watching how that feeling

changes

is actually a process of

seeing and perceiving impermanence when

you see that then that naturally leads

to the perception of anata as you said

yes

and when it when it becomes so very

quiet

um as the speaker before was telling

is

and you

cannot do it do it anything or

it

doesn't have to

to be it doesn't have to be done

something that it's just quiet just

staying and it is quiet

can you see that as a radiation

no let me tell you different

because you were speaking about relation

relationship matter in the relations

this evening and i felt very touched by

it i thought this is the thing that i am

how to

radiate

but there is no one to radiate

yeah so

so you know one of

one of the experiences uh i just want to

know i mean i know you said you're new

to twins so i think i'll give you a

little bit of understanding of how the

steps are first you

yeah first you radiate to a spiritual

friend and then afterwards then you

radiate your different

people the categories of people and then

when it comes to actually radiating

to

uh in all directions you're taking all

beings

in that sense

not just your family members not just

your friends

not just the difficult people not just

the casual acquaintances but all beings

all animals and so on and so forth

there was an experience of uh somebody

who

was experiencing infinite space

and they're experiencing compassion it

was in one of the sessions that we were

doing where we were going through each

of the jhanas and as he was doing it one

of the things i indicated is when you

radiate compassion

there can be a time where you actually

start to connect with a specific

individual or groups of individual in

the meditation and sometimes you see

that that person is suffering

and sometimes you have an intention to

follow them up or send them an email or

message them and invariably you'll see

that yes indeed they were suffering and

they were looking up for somebody to

help them and things like that so

somebody went through this process doing

that

and they actually saw that somebody in

their life was suffering

and and they understood that uh you know

that person needed support uh needed uh

words of guidance and and help and so on

and uh

you know that was their decision to

whether they wanted to act upon it or

not but that can happen when you radiate

loving kindness and when you radiate

compassion you can actually start to

connect with certain people and it just

gives you a reminder to stay in touch

with them and see how they're doing and

so on

so in reality

then

you take make contact with the person

yes

it's a step further

thank you very much

you're welcome

nelson um since we're talking about the

arupa jhanas

um i wondered if you could just uh give

us a few thumbnail sketches of what it's

like to be there

what are the what are the beans

experience in the

upper realms

yeah beyond the form realms and the

formless realms number one all that that

is there is mentality we talk about

mentality materiality that really is

talking about

mind and factors of the mind that's

mentality or nama

and rupa which is the body itself made

up of the four great elements or the

four states of matter as we understand

in modern understanding

but the arupa janas there's only

mentality so there's still some kind of

contact there's still some kind of

feeling there's still some kind of

perception there's still some kind of

intention there's still some kind of

attention the experience of infinite

space somebody who has an experience of

being in infinite space

being a being in infinite space

they have no body

there's no experience of any kind of

body there's just contact in the form of

the understanding of an infinitude of

space there's just the feeling and

perception of the infinitude of space

there's no

borders anywhere it's like uh

you know i mean qualitatively speaking

it's that kind of experience where you

become one with the universe

but that being there is still that sense

of i am there's still that sense of

i exist you know it's not verbalized but

it's just understood as

here i am and i am infinite space

infinite consciousness is interesting

because then the awareness becomes so

refined that you start to see mental

contact and that mental contact is in

the form of different kinds of

perceptions different kinds of feeling

and perception

and that is just basically

not flickering obviously because that

there's no eye there

it's not listening to anything it's just

frames of thoughts

they're like they're like

different frames of thoughts that arise

and pass away and you're just watching

this flow of the frames of thoughts

arise and pass away and that's all

that's going on and it's happening but

along with that there's an experience of

some kind of relief some kind of and by

the way there is a lot of relief because

there's no body there the body has so

much

pressure so much

suffering so much

other kinds of pain and

pleasure and things like that but none

of that is experienced here

in nothingness

there is this idea that there is not

even the seeing of the frames of

individual thoughts there's just this

experience of

nothing

and the way that sense of understanding

is i am nothing you know there comes a

point in somebody's experience of

meditation where they realize

there's nothing to hold on to i am

nothing that's the same kind of

perception that happens with these

beings there they experience the sense

of

i am nothing and they think that to be

the superior

they think that to be the supreme that

this sense of i am nothing

now neither perception or non-perception

is very interesting because there's no

recognition of what's going on in the

way of the factors of mentality there's

no contact there's no feeling there's

very little perception there's no

intention at all

and so all there is

is this sense of i am

this is also known as

in some traditions as

uh

asmita samadhi

like in the yoga sutras they talk about

asmr samadhi which is the sense of just

existing

and not having anything else it's a

sense of i am existing

but not dependent on anything else but

that sense of i am existing itself

is uh also within conditioned reality

and so

when a being comes out of this

realm of neither perception and

non-perception whatever intention arises

just before the dissolution of that

experience

is liable to create the next set of

experiences in the next rebirth so

there's no intention going on there at

all

it only happens at the very end it's

very similar to the asanata beings but

there is still a consciousness of i am

there's still a consciousness of i am

existing and then when the intention

rises again it is liable to create

the next rebirth

and you're just swimming in space

not

doing anything

at least in infinite space you're

swimming in space there's just nothing

going on and then even the nothingness

is just

there's no sense of space either no

sense of dimension no sense up down here

there yeah

strange

is it really worth it to uh hang out

there for eighty four thousand major

couples in the

high i would get bored i would get yeah

i would easily yeah

like okay that was nice for five minutes

oh no another eighty three thousand

four hundred whatever maha kappas to go

okay

um uh why not uh shameless plugs for

your book you've got the book you just

put it on amazon pre-publication

yeah so right now i am working with the

uh the formatter to get it almost done

so we're about a few weeks before we

actually get it

in print but it is available on amazon

uh

uh on kindle

uh for pre-order and i've put the

tentative release date as december 3rd

it might come about earlier but i don't

know if you have a link david if you

want to put it in the chat but you can

go to that link and you can pre-order

okay

and then you're working on a much longer

book

right

yes that's going to take about a year

year and a half to actually finish and

that's the book on dependent origination

right now i'm still stuck in craving i

mean the chapter of creativity you're

sucking craving did you say

[Laughter]

so um

it's it's it's going to be a big one

it's it's going to be almost like an

encyclopedia of dependent origination as

much as

as much information as there about is

there about each of the links of

dependent origination it's going to be

there so we don't know how it's going to

be released it might be released in

different booklets or maybe he has one

massive volume but i'm going through all

23 links so that's going to be

the 12 links as we understand them when

it comes to suffering

and then the 11 links that lead to

ibana so that's

suffering onwards like

faith and pamoja and

sukkah and tranquility and collectedness

seeing reality as it is dispassion all

of the different links that we talk

about that lead to nibana

and you're you're basing that book on

the upanisa i guess

that's right

where everybody thought there was just

12 links but there's 23 links

the unknown links

and that's what we're all on right now

is we're on the 13 links right now

on the path to nibana

that's right

any further questions today

hey hi david this is pat hey patrick

nelson thank you delson um i i just

wanted to david to maybe our our dear

friend jotika there does she know that

uh

there's online courses available at

donnasuka.org

that she could take to maybe

uh help her get a better understanding

since she seemed to be asking that

question in case she doesn't know i just

thought i wanted to throw that out there

i endorse it

that's why people have done them

so anyway

if you if you want you should look at

the website if you don't know already

yes

yeah okay i heard it and i will thank

you

okay

thank you very much sure

guys delson i have one question about

two questions on my site

one is that

did i understand right in this genre in

this uh sutra you read

um if you experience each haruka janas

when you

be born

um you're gonna go to the next genre or

you're gonna basically be born

as a stream winner um or you're gonna at

the time of death you're gonna

basically experience the stream winner

or sensation

um so my second question is that um

um if your object is quite mine

and if you have got a very engineering

mind and problem solver mind and the

task of the day just descend on your

mind

and distract you a lot

what is your recommendation to practice

and calm it down and

getting back to that state of the um

quiet mind or the object of meditation

okay i i just wanted to clarify your

first question i was i was not

completely uh able to

uh understand exactly what you're asking

is it that uh

if somebody gets to a jhana are they

liable to be reborn into a new uh into

that realm associated with that genre

right for instance if you are

experiencing i don't know the infinite

consciousness

if you

reborn are you going to reborn in a

state of the

infinite uh i don't know nothingness or

if you experience nothingness in this

life

you're gonna experience the you know

perception

non-perception next lifetime

or if you experience the the last one

for john or eight john are you going to

experience the station at the time of

the deaths and uh

what what is the uh buddha's word on

that

yeah so i'm going to go back to the suta

itself

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides

thus

meaning

a person who becomes

attached to the experience of that jhana

continues to

progress

their mastery of that genre that can

lead to an attachment to the jhana

rather than seeing it as impersonal

and that can cause that being

to take rebirth

because what will happen is at the point

of dissolution of the body

the mentality the mind the formations

that arise

happen to arise because the mind

naturally inclines

towards that specific genre

and if that's the last

set of formations that arise there's a

there can be a tendency to cling to them

which can activate a new consciousness

that takes rebirth

so to speak in that particular brahmara

realm associated with that genre

so

if somebody is doing this and has

attachment to that genre it can cause

them to take rebirth there

if somebody attains you know attached or

has attachment to

neither perception non-perception

they won't go into cessation they will

only go into cessation when they let go

of it in meditation

so whatever jhana the mind is

most interested in and develops

what happens is because of that

continuous development of interest in

that genre there is a continual

strengthening

of formations rooted in that jhana

practice

those formations then give rise to

an experience that the mind will cling

to

and then cause rebirth in that

particular giant realm but that doesn't

mean that the person will move forward

into an into that the next realm or

something like that it's just whatever

realm associated with that with that

particular genre is where they will go

okay and and then i guess they're gonna

gonna reborn as human being or it's

gonna be different realm

well for example if you're in the first

shana and somebody is interested in the

first china and really likes it then

they'll be born in the first promo realm

associated

with the first channel

or with the second jhana with the

abhasarams with the third jana with the

tsubaki in the realms and things like

that so these are the different form

realms of the brahma realms they won't

be born as a human again they'll be

reborn as a brahma in that particular

realm

thanks um so i guess uh for the second

question

yeah the second question is

can you say it again please

yeah sure um so if the object of

meditation is quite mine and um you have

a very engineering mind and

problem-solving mind and

i don't know the task of the

day and deadlines and all of those

descend on your mind where you want to

basically go through

meditation and sit down and but all of

those suddenly comes and take you to

hindrances or restlessness and all those

um how to

basically um try to i mean even if the

6r doesn't work and even if the very

basic meta

um doesn't work just assuming that the

friend and all of those

um what is your recommendation for

basically getting to that stage of uh

quiet mind uh to practice i mean

some some days of course is better than

some other days

work might be busy

um compared to other days that work is

not as busy less deadlines less stress

so yeah just wanted to know what is your

recommendation to practice especially on

a difficult day

i would say it depends upon

the intention and what that means is

there's a there's a couple of sutas or i

think three sutas in one after the other

which which are all known as the

caitanya or the sudan intention

and what it talks about is

when there is an intention and there is

a planning and there's a tendency

towards something the mind is liable to

bring up a consciousness that

establishes into that object of

intention

so if you intend to through the day

which is to say you have something going

on in terms of a deadline it is going to

be difficult because your mind is

inclined towards that it also says that

if you if you don't have the intention

but you have the plans towards it or

your

underlying tendency inclines towards it

that's also liable to cause the

consciousness to establish into it

but if you

don't have an intention that means

and that's very difficult to do because

the mind is liable to create some kind

of intention or some kind of an activity

even in meditation itself when you come

to the meditation and you put in some

kind of intention that causes the

consciousness to establish into that

particular intention

the attitude for meditation should be

you sit down and have no expectations

this goes one well it goes to the level

of beginner mind or one level below that

which is to say

i don't know what's going to happen with

the meditation i don't have any

intention let's see where our mind wants

to go as soon as you put an intention

there there is going to be resistance to

that intention in the form of hindrances

in the form of restlessness in the form

of disquiet

so instead of doing that what you should

do is just sit down

and allow your mind to become mindful by

just watching what's going on in the way

of the feeling in the body what's going

on in the way of where the mind is

inclining towards

basically using the four foundations of

mindfulness to let the mind kind of

disassociate from the sensual

experiences

and with whatever is happening in the

day or whatever is going to happen in

the day what you'll see when you do that

is there is a further quietening of the

mind and then it will collect itself

around something

instead of intending that i'm going to

radiate loving kindness instead of

intending i'm going to radiate

compassion or even instead of intending

i'm going to be in the quiet mind allow

the mind to go where it wants to go and

it will naturally incline towards

wherever it feels like it wants to go

and your job there is to just observe

its inten attention

let it rest there and then sticks are

whenever that attention swerves if you

do it in this way you'll find that the

mind quietens down much quicker

so i've done that a couple of times

especially letting the mind go and of

course it's just continue problem

solving and getting to the next and next

and next and we'll try to 6r and take it

back

uh but it's just keep going and going to

the planning mode and

the rest so um

and i've done some uh so you talk about

the four foundations

um is it that you recommend like go back

to breeding or the the formation of the

body or formation of the mind or mind

and look into that as well

you know the thing about the foundations

of mindfulness i see the foundations of

mindfulness going on even when you're

doing loving kindness even when you're

doing breathing even when you're doing

whatever it might be because when you

have loving kindness you have the

foundation

of mindfulness of the body when you see

or perceive warmth in the body you have

the feeling of loving kindness you have

you see the intention that arises

through the mind

you have the the actual loving kindness

which is the brahmavihara you might

notice a hindrance

you might notice this enlightenment

factor or whatever it might be and this

is looking at phenomena that have that

is happening within the mind so i i

would say that you know while it seems

like the four foundations are a separate

practice they're actually there present

in any kind of meditation you do where

there's twin whether it's breathing or

loving kindness

as to the recommendation of whether you

should do breathing or loving kindness

that's really up to you you should you

should try and experiment but if you're

going to do breathing

i understand that don't allow the mind

to focus on the breath so much that it

becomes concentrated allow the breath to

become a reminder of being attentive

and relaxing and letting go

okay

what was the sutras you said there are

three sutras that jesus to trust do you

have the name for those or the numbers

uh i think somebody actually typed them

in already it is

okay okay brilliant um

so going back to what you mentioned

about um just sitting down and let the

mind go wherever it wants to go

um

what if you just continue planning and

problem solving how do how should i

tackle that

ethics are and see

but more importantly when you six are it

you're recognizing now the mind is

restless

you

recognize it you release your attention

away from it you relax it

if you're doing it correctly if you

relax and you re-smile

the return process

just see where the mind collects around

that return process when you see what's

happening there the mind will naturally

collect around something whether it's

loving kindness or whether it's

compassion

or whether it's

the breath

or whether it's the quiet mind

so if you're

you're correctly doing the six hours

then the mind will naturally collect

around something

and that's what you have to see and

recognize and perceive

so can we by intention put that

object that mind gonna collect around

that or just observe

very the minor what is the object that

mind gonna get collect around it

there's two ways of doing it you can

have a slight intention meaning before

you sit down if you want you can do that

and say okay let's try loving kindness

or

and i would say for you it might be the

preferable way is to

just allow to see where the mind lands

upon because sometimes if you just allow

the mind to go into loving kindness it

might not want to be there maybe it

wants to be in compassion maybe it wants

to be an equanimity just see where it

wants to go to in the way of an object

of meditation

not in the way of going through the

thought stream of planning

see where it's collecting around in

terms of an object

so basically in terms of objects you're

talking about the problem of your any of

the four objects basically yes yes

okay thank you

you're welcome

uh hi nelson i i have

one question about um

the capabilities of

beings uh

in these realms

uh are they able to

um

uh

develop towards

uh nibana or even learn

or would that not be possible

just like in the hell realms and just

like in the brahmarams where the beings

are burning out their karmic fuel

dependent upon what they did in the

previous life it's the same thing in the

pajamas there's no capacity

to experience the dharma so to speak the

first brahmaram is quite possible

because there's still some verbalizing

there there's still some activity going

on there but then as you get to deeper

and deeper or subtler and supper levels

really what's going on is those beings

are just kind of blissed out you know

they're just walking

janna addicts and they're just i mean at

least in the form realms and they're not

doing anything else

uh in the arupa janas or the rupa realms

uh they're just burning out the karmic

fuel of that experience so if it's for

whatever mahakapa's that's what's going

on

there's no

capacity for them to

get deeper and experience nibana

right

thanks you're welcome

so maybe one or two more questions and

we'll um call an end to this

going once

hi nelson

hello

i i just wanted to um

say you did a really beautiful job with

the suit it really really is nice the

way you put it together and you're so

succinct with your timing and

everything's really beautiful

and um

when you were talking about mind is

watching mind

it brought up something for me that

[Music]

before the buddha meditation seems to

have always had a subject and an object

involved like a person and an object

always involved and then and then along

comes the buddha

he comes along and he says okay here's

what's going to happen the object is

going to be the subject

and turned it around

and

that keeps going through my mind and

this was what was happening with this

i kept coming back to that you know in

this particular thing

um

yeah and that brings about the

experience of anata being able to see

this as being impersonal

yeah exactly exactly

but um it's a flip turn what he does you

know

and um probably upset a lot of people

because they were working from the other

angle you know they must have been one

of the reasons why the six groups got so

mad and everything you know yeah but

anyway they were just terrible

anyway um

the um

oh i had a question wait a second

when do we do this

i was writing notes and um wait a minute

um

yeah

so what was being said in in the

aligadoopa masuta in um

22. it's regime and kind number 22.

the situation with arty was that he um

he wanted to engage things all the time

and um

and then the monks got angry and they

sent for the buddha said you've got to

straighten him out because there were

young monks that were coming there and

he was informing them the wrong way

and um it turns out if you just abandon

abandoned abandoned abandon and let go

let go go

that that's that's where this whole

thing ends up and one of the most

beautiful things about that was one uh

and enough appendicular pseudo because

when you look at enough advice to

another pentagon 143

then that's when you really feel well he

took the people through life he taught

them all these things and then in the

end when he's dying

and then nathan pindika was like a

roadie you know for i wrote i call him

the roadie when i talked to people about

him he was voting for the concerts and

made sure everybody had seats and they

had water and they had everything they

needed and lamps and space and

everything so he didn't always listen to

the buddha and this is why he wanted

help in the end he wanted the buddha to

guide him out of life but the whole

lesson

is to um let it go let it go let it go

let it go

and uh yeah

so yeah i'm glad you brought up uh

i'm sorry i no i that's just this

letting go this abandoning and

abandoning and bending and it seems to

work really well and when you get when

you get people in front of you who

haven't done anything have you done that

yet have you had have you had like a

retreat where

where ev everybody in the room they

haven't read anything about meditation

and then you start teaching them

it's it's crazy it's so incredible how

accurate this stuff is if you get people

who will listen to you and they'll write

down everything you say and do what you

ask and report back in the interviews

and everybody in the retreat is doing

that

it it was a shock

that when this happened it was a few

weeks back with 16. the 16 nuns that did

it with me it was quite something

and only one of them had had a uh had

had a uh experience um with meditation

slightly with vipassana but all the rest

of them hadn't cracked a book

had never read anything

and were only doing

centering prayer sort of thing from the

christian side of you of sitting in

prayer you know

and they took to it like ducks take to

water it was something else that

happened amazing stuff

so

i just wondered if you had ever had this

experience with people before like that

yeah i have uh whether i was doing

online retreat i mean mostly online

retreat guidance uh there have been

other people who had no experience with

the meditation and if they just follow

the instructions

uh to the letter

you start to see basically it's like a

formulaic thing you start to see the

same thing

in terms of them experiencing joy and

then they let go and then they

experience the second genre and then

they experience the third and

finally they experience stream entry at

some point so

yes if you follow the instructions

and and don't even have to have any kind

of understanding of the suttas the

understanding of the suthas will come

later when you actually practice

and the practice actually informs you

and the experience teaches you and you

kind of like

unlock the code of the sutas and a lot

of the things that you see you kind of

recognize from your own experience

i just want to touch a little bit on

what you're talking about with

anathepindaka 143.

if you look at that particular suta the

way sariputta is talking about he says

my consciousness will not land on

any of the five aggregates any of the

sixth sense bases and in this world or

the next and so on and so forth there's

an encapsulation of all that process

where there's a suta in which

uh

in which ananda asks

uh sariputta is there a con is there a

perception or is an experience that is

beyond the sixth sense basis

that goes beyond the five aggregates

that goes beyond uh the realms as in

terms of the arupa-janas that goes

beyond

the this world and that world and

sariputta says yes there is

and it is namely this the stilling of

all formations

the

uh

the uh

the the

relinquishment of

all clinging of all assets

the dispassion this enchantment the

dispassion the cessation the

the experience of nibana itself so if

you look at 143 from that context what

sariputta is doing is leading anata

pindaka through the unconditioned by

allowing his mind to let go let go let

go

until there's nothing that the mind

lands on

into and it experiences the uncond it's

a fun suit to memorize because to teach

someone to memorize is just i will not

cling to the eye and my consciousness

will not be dependent on the eye and you

do this through all the six sense

stories it's the same sentence over and

over and over again you're drilling and

drilling your head and some of them just

uh we played with that because they

wanted to learn something

to remember and we

chose to use that one and put it in the

first tense and let them use it and and

it really worked wonderfully because

most of them could remember it within a

few days they memorized prayers you know

and stuff so they're good memorized

that's wonderful

oh but it was such a good feeling to see

this leaving you know this what a way to

be ushered out

you know right away just amazing yeah

thank you for the suit i really enjoyed

it

okay i think um

could i say come here

oh yeah yeah sure go ahead i just wanted

to verify what uh

well

i mean you get my seal of approval

but what daleson had said to sister

keema was

true true for me in any case when i did

i just did the online retreats as you

know and um david and um

i

i knew

very little about buddhism i mean just

hardly anything and i hadn't really i'd

listened to maybe

a video or so but i knew very little i i

went into it with no expectations i just

followed along

i didn't kill myself with trying to

meditate all day and do all anything

extreme i just you know went about my

life and then i i made sure i did

what i needed to do you know what was

required and

you know i had great success and then

after that i started delving into

reading and studying more and and that

type of thing so

anyway that was my two cents worth i

just wanted to

yeah i think i think our best students

that come here don't know anything at

all

you know they haven't practiced you know

uh tantra

breath or tibetan

or

mtv of anything

you know mahayana theravada

nothing they just go well we just want

to meditate you know

and they don't really even know what the

goal is

right and they just figure it well

they'll get calm and relaxed

right and some of them even come and say

oh i thought this was a yoga retreat

but then they leave

that's true uh um i think uh who's it

russ said that when he was here but uh

then they leave

you know flying up into the jaundice

they had no idea and they left with an

amazing experience

but they had no idea what the background

was and like you did tommy was you had

to go and read what the heck all this

stuff was all about

and

yeah so right right so yeah so it's

it's just no expectations is the way to

start i guess

in the stay with that eyes you know

yeah

and your sitting should be

100 no expectations too well i

always tell people tommy i always tell

people to uh go into the sitting as as

if you were two years old and you were

you were peeking around the corner just

to see who's in the next room and you go

in just to see what happens next see

like nels delson said expecting nothing

but if you have kids you remember when

they were little and they'd walk around

all over the house trying to see what

this is and what that is

just to see what happens next with that

frame of mind and just sit

that's what you do

perfect

[Laughter]

or if you're the kids just sit down and

shut up

no i didn't know

then david

that's

funny right is that it or

let's share some merit okay

may suffering ones be suffering

free and the fear struck fearless being

may the grieving shed all

grief and may all beings find relief may

all beings share this merit that we have

thus acquired

for the acquisition of all kinds of

happiness

may beings inhabiting space and earth

devas and nagas of mighty power share

this merit of ours

may they long protect the buddha's

dispensation sadhus

[Music]

all right thank you very much we will

see everybody

next week if you so desire

and we'll just keep going uh sundays at

one o'clock our time

um into november with ponte

restarting again

and everybody have a good week and a

good city

[Music]

you

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

you get started

let's do it uh let me spotlight you here

okay the show is yours delson

all right thank you

so today we're going to be reading 106

and let me take time

reading this particular title here it's

uh

the way to the imperturbable

this is the only suit that where both

the pali and the english

are difficult to pronounce

and you can slip up but uh anyway

first have i heard on one occasion the

blessed one was living in the kuru

country where there was a town of the

kurus named kama sadhama

there the blessed one addressed the

biku's dust because

venerable sir they replied the blessed

one said this

sensual pleasures are impermanent hollow

false deceptive

they are illusory the prattle of fools

sensual pleasures here and now and

sensual pleasures and lives to come

sensual pleasures here and now and

essential pleasures

essential perceptions here and now and

sensual perceptions in life's to come

both alike are mara's realm mara's

domain

mara's bait

mara's hunting ground

an account of them

these evil unwholesome mental states

such as covetousness

ill will and presumption arise

and they can constitute an obstruction

to a noble disciple in training here

so the buddha is laying out the

the hindrances

there are different kinds of

distractions that can arise in the way

of sensory experiences

and what he says is

they are they both including the central

pleasures and sensual perceptions

whether they're here presently or they

will be

arriving in the next moment or whenever

it might be

all of them are considered to be

impermanent are considered to be

illusory considered to be impersonal

and the moment you take them personally

the moment you see this sensual

experience as

me mine or myself

then you are in as he puts it mara's

realm mara's domain you are in mara's

bait or mara's hunting ground

when we think about mara we we usually

or traditionally see him and see that

being as being some sort of a

demon or devil or tempter or whatever it

might be but really he's just a deva

who's uh

was just enjoying um sensual experiences

and his whole point or her old point

depending upon

how you see mara

is

to

to attract people or all beings towards

the sensual realm

um the whole point there is not to get

beyond that and to get beyond that is to

go through the process of jhana when you

get through the process of jhana you

start to become in you start to see

the emptiness of

all sensual experience

because what you see is

the five physical senses

they create through the process of

dependent origination

and experience

and this experience being dependent upon

the five physical sense spaces

is

also impermanent

because of the fact that it's dependent

but when you get into jhana

you come into an experience of seclusion

from sensual pleasures

seclusion from unwholesome states and

when we talk about seclusion from

unwholesome pleasures or sensual

pleasures in general

what we're saying is you're experiencing

a

another level of happiness this is a

super mundane level of happiness that

you experience in the form of pity

and sukkah that is to say joy and

comfort of body tranquility equanimity

and so on from the first jhana onwards

and this experience of the first journal

shows you that there is a joy beyond the

five physical pleasures the five

physical senses

and so you

start to see the emptiness

the hollowness the deceptiveness as the

buddha puts it the illusoriness

of physical sensual pleasures

and it's because of these unwholesome

mental states

uh or rather because of these sensual

pleasures unwholesome mental states

arise

because you identify with the body and

you identify with the physical senses or

you even identify with the mind itself

and you start to covet things or you

start to covet experiences that's

another way of saying

longing or craving

or you have aversion or you have a sense

of identity of who you are and who you

are not

based on your likes and dislikes this

happens through the process of clinging

independent origination

so all of these are dependent upon

sensual and even mental experiences

because as we will see

even ghana can be a state which you can

identify with and cause the mind to

start to cling to and and become

prideful and conceited and all kinds of

things

and this

uh

taking of the jhana personal

this process of identifying with the

jhana causes the mind to stay in that

particular genre because it either

enjoys it too much or thinks that it's

the ultimate when in fact it's still

within the realm of conditioned reality

so the buddha continues he says

therein because a noble disciple

considers thus sensual pleasures here

and now

and sensual pleasures in lives to come

central perceptions here and now

and sensual perceptions in life to come

constitute an obstruction to a noble

disciple in training here

suppose i were to abide with the mind

abundant and exalted having transcended

the world and made a firm determination

with the mind

so in other words here

somebody who is practicing

leading up to the fort china

when we talk about what he's going to be

talking about really is the fourth genre

onwards so he's talking about the

imperturbable

the imperturbable is always referred to

as

in regards to the fourth jhana in

regards to also what is known as

the beautiful

so

here somebody abides with the mind that

is abundant and exalted having

transcended the world meaning having

transcended the sixth sense spaces and

their experiences

by no longer paying attention to contact

uh physical contact and rather staying

with the fortuna which is that super

mundane state

when i do so there will be no more evil

unwholesome mental states such as

covetousness

ill will and presumption in me

and with the abandoning of them my mind

will be unlimited immeasurable and well

developed

now what he's talking about here when he

says once he abandons these different

hindrances you get into a state of jhana

and as you get towards the imperturbable

your mind becomes rid of barriers

your mind flows

it stays with its object of meditation

for quite a long time relatively

speaking before it does get distracted

then you use that whole process of the

six hours to come back again

and then it develops the immeasurable

which is to say it gets ready to become

more expansive

and start to experience infinite space

as we'll see when it radiates

any of the brahmaviharas

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus his mind acquires

confidence in this space

once there is full confidence

he either attains to the imperturbable

now

or else he resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on in the

imperturbable

this because is declared to be

the first way directed to the

imperturbable

so he says

he either attains

to the imperturbable or else he resolves

upon it with wisdom

so

either what happens is you experience

the fortuna and then you take that for

gianna to be me mine or myself

and you really enjoy it you have

self-confidence in it you're really

enjoying it and having this flow of

mind in the fourth ghana as it takes its

object of meditation

keeps the attention on the object of

meditation without any effort

or you see through it and understand

that this fourth jhana is just a step

towards nibana it's not the ultimate

and you see through it which is to say

you see it as being impersonal

you don't take it personally you see it

as impermanent because it arose because

of causes and conditions

it arose because of an intention and

then there was a state in which the

attention was

resting on the object of meditation for

quite some time there was a process in

which the the factors of the previous

jhanas started to dissipate and there

comes this experience of jhana when you

see it in this way the mind doesn't take

it to be personal doesn't take it to be

permanent and moves on either towards

the next level of the imperturbable or

even experiences nibana there can be

there have been pro

situations where even from the first

jhana onwards

upon seeing the jana as being empty of

self upon seeing the jhana as being

impermanent the mind inclines towards

cessation

and by doing so experiences

nibana

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

there are sensual pleasures here and now

and central pleasures in life to come

sensual pleasures hear central

perceptions here and now and central

perceptions in lives to come

whatever material form there is

all material form is the four great

elements and the material form derived

from the four great elements

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus

his mind acquires

confidence in this space

once there is full confidence

he attains

to the imperturbable now or else he

resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on to rebirth in

the imperturbable this because is

declared to be the second way directed

to the imperturbable

what's important to understand here is

that now we are getting into the

territory of what's known as the

arupa-janas

the arupa-janas are also known as the

ayathanas

ayatena means base or realm or sphere

and it also can be in the context of the

sticks sense bases the

salah salat ayathana are basically

the sixth sense bases so the ayatana of

infinite space is what

buddha is talking about here

and why is that because he says

here somebody experiences and

understands sensual pleasures as being

impermanent

sees sensual perceptions being

impermanent

and sees material form as well

being impermanent

so this is a natural process you don't

have to intend upon it in the same way

that you would investigate and analyze

and think about it it happens gradually

it happens naturally when the conditions

are right there will be the experience

of infinite space

and it's done through the experience of

radiating in the six directions

loving-kindness or compassion

when you do this you are no longer

with the physical body

your experience the contact the feeling

the perception the attention

it's now rooted in just the mental realm

now there is only the mentality which is

an experience of the formless rooms the

arupa-janas or the formless ayathanas as

they are called

now if you get attached to this that is

to say you really like it you make this

a big deal and you say this is wonderful

rather than

uh staying with your object what happens

is the mind sees it and says wow this is

amazing this infinite space

that the mind is experiencing is a

wonderful experience and it truly is

but if you make a big deal of out of it

and if you allow the mind to stay

attached to it you're not going to move

on further

and it can happen as the buddha says

that the attachment to this state can

lead

to rebirth in the arupa realm of

infinite space

so one either sees and attains the

imperturbable or experiences it with

wisdom meaning seeing it as being

impermanent and just allows the process

to happen

you see what's happening with the jhana

practice is if you're truly experiencing

it in the way that causes you to release

and let go

there is this meta awareness so to speak

a metacognition so to speak and what

that means is

the mind is watching how the attention

is moving in these different genetic

states whether it's rupa or arupa

rather than watching it being in the

state in other words rather than

experiencing it as a self that is

experiencing this jhana or the

arupa-janas it is just watching

itself it's like mind is watching mind

the attention is just on how attention

moves whether it's from the object

meditation to a hindrance or to seeing a

factory of the janus if you see the

factor of infinite space and

experiencing infinite space

that's one experience but you become

distracted and you have the 6r that just

know that yes there is an experience of

infinite space but returned back to the

experience of radiating loving kindness

or compassion now later on when you

develop the genre you can switch back

and forth and you can see when you are

radiating loving kindness or compassion

and there's a softer gentler feeling

especially with compassion and they

switch your gaze so to speak you switch

your attention to just radiating and

seeing the infinite space you might

actually experience a sense of

that infinite space you'll experience

this sense of floating and an infinitive

of space without any borders it depends

on where your attention is

but in that process of having your

attention on infinite space if you get

attached to it as we said

you will

not progress further and you will just

see that as being the ultimate rather

than letting go and experiencing

a higher state

or experiencing even possibly cessation

and then experiencing nibana

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now and

sensual pleasures in lives to come

sensual perceptions here and now in

sensual perceptions in life to come

material forms here and now and material

forms in lives to come

perceptions are forms here and now and

perceptions of forms in life's to come

both alike are impermanent

what is impermanent is not worth

delighting in

not worth welcoming

not worth holding on to

when he practices in this way and abides

frequently abides thus his mind acquires

confidence in the space

once there is full confidence he either

attains the imperfe imperturbable now

or else he resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death

it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on the rebirth in

the imperturple

this spekus is declared to be the third

way directed to the imperturbable

so now what you are seeing

or what you will see in infinite

consciousness because what he's talking

about now is infinite consciousness

the different arising and passing away

of sensory experiences through the eye

through the ear through the nose to

through the tongue through the skin or

through the mind

and what that means is it's not

happening at the level of the physical

sense basis there is an internal contact

at the level of mind that is perceiving

that is to save mental awareness or

mental consciousnesses

cognizing the arising and passing away

of various sensory consciousnesses

so when you do this this perception of

forms

is not just material form but this

perception of forms is seeing the

flickering

you might see in your periphery of your

mental vision a ring of light and it

starts to scatter or you might start to

see different flickers or concentric

circles

if the formations that are rooted in the

year faculty are stronger maybe you're a

musician or you use your ears more you

might have more refined hearing and the

contact internal contact in the air base

experiences some kind of flickering or

it can happen through the nose you might

smell phantom

odors in fragrances might happen through

the tongue some people experience like

jolts of electricity zipping through the

tongue or even some phantom tastes

some people experience something on the

skin but you have to understand all of

that is mental you might experience heat

you might experience tingling you might

experience

other things all of that is happening in

the mentality its internal contact has

nothing to do with the body

seeing this as impermanent you also see

that the arising and passing away of

these

is not worth holding on to because they

are liable to cause suffering if you

hold on to it

and not worth

seeing as self because in infinite

consciousness when you see the arising

and passing way of consciousnesses

even mental consciousness which is to

say you start to see the gaps between

thoughts

and you start to realize

that this process is not in anyone's

control

it's arising because of causes and

conditions

and it becomes tiresome after a while

but if you hold on to this experience

then you're not going to progress

further

if you take this experience

where you are actually radiating joy

and not looking at radiating joy but

rather your attention is now in all of

these different multifaceted experiences

then you become attached to it and you

think that that's the ultimate

so let go of that see it as being a

process a natural gradual process of

unfolding

what you are doing

invariably when you go through these

processes

is getting to levels of cessation

so what i mean by that is when you see

genres as levels of cessation what

you're seeing

now that we're talking about the

arupa-janas

when we talk about the fourth jhana it

is the cessation

of the experience of the third jhana

and there is a tranquilizing of bodily

formations the breath becomes

imperceptible

your

body becomes lighter you don't really

feel it unless there is some kind of

contact

from the external world unless there's

like a fly hitting your hand or

wind

if you're outside uh rubbing against

your face or whatever it might be

but other than that

there is

no experience of the physicality so it

is the cessation of that when you get to

infinite space there is a cessation of

the experience of the equanimity in

the fourth jana that you experience in

the fourth form ghana the rupa jana

when you get into infinite consciousness

there is a cessation of the perception

of infinite space

and now the compassion that's there in

infinite space

changes to joy and this joy as we talked

about before

it's just joy it's a very contented joy

you talk about it as empathetic joy

sympathetic joy or altruistic joy

so if you hold on to this

the mind might become attached to it and

as the buddha says it is possible that

the evolving consciousness may pass on

to rebirth in this particular realm

but those beings who have

gone through this process and become

attached to it

especially through one pointed

concentration one pointed focus

they see that as the ultimate

a lot of times when you see infinite

space or infinite consciousness that can

be mistaken to be an experience of

unification between

what is considered to be the self and

the universe there is this experience

that is

quite exhilarating quite profound but

ultimately it is in conditioned reality

then he goes on to say

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now in

central pleasures in lives to come

sensual perceptions here and now

and sensual perceptions in lives to come

material forms here and now and material

forms in lives to come

perceptions are form here and now

and perceptions are forms in life's to

come

and perceptions of the imperturbable

input

imperturbable

all our perceptions

when these perceptions cease without

remainder

that is the peaceful that is the sublime

namely the base of nothingness

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides us

his mind acquires confidence in this

space

once there is full confidence he either

attains to the base of nothingness now

or else he resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body

after death it is possible that the

evolving consciousness may pass on to

rebirth in the base of nothingness

this because is declared to be the first

way directed to the base of nothingness

but now the buddha is making a

delineation here and he's talking about

the fourth jana when he's talking about

infinite space and infinite

consciousness he calls that to be the

imperturbable but then he's not going to

talk about nothingness as a separate

category and neither perception or

non-perception as a separate category

but it's important to understand that

all of these are happening within the

realm of

china when it comes to the practice but

when you get to the fourth jhana that is

the base upon which you then experience

infinite space

infinite consciousness

nothingness neither perception

or non-perception

and here what the buddha is saying is

one sees the perceptions

of form one sees in terms of the

perceptions of different kinds of mental

activity that might happen and the

perceptions of the imperturbable and

what that means is

when you get to infinite consciousness

when you see the flickering or whatever

it might be

eventually that slows down and now the

mind becomes more attentive to the gaps

between each flicker and these gaps

are basically the cessation of the

perceptions of the imperturbable the

perception of the syst or the cessation

of the perception of infinite

consciousness

and as the gaps widen you start to get

deeper into or towards the level of

nothingness

and eventually some people have an

experience of just dropping down into

that experience of nothingness some

people see complete slowing down and

stilling of the mind and there is this

pristine

very exquisite exquisite silence that is

the nothingness

now when you are in nothingness

all external realities in terms of the

thoughts about what's happening in the

outside world cease

now the mind she sees within itself now

the mind is

experiencing very deep equanimity which

is tied to the experience of nothingness

now if you take this to be personal that

is to say you make a big deal out of it

and say wow this is amazing i'm just

going to stay here

you won't move forward

but if you allow the mind to naturally

unfold through this process of the

jhanas through the path to nibana

then you get into higher states as we'll

see

or you might experience with wisdom

the experience of cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

right there and then

there are those who have experienced

sensation just by having radiated

equanimity and then at a certain point

in suddenly

everything stopped for a bit and then

they came back online and experienced

nibana they saw the links independent

nation so there are those who have

experienced cessation from nothingness

as well

again because a noble disciple

gone to the forest or to the root of a

tree or to an empty hut considers thus

this is void of a self or of what

belongs to a self

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus his mind acquires

confidence in this space

once there is

full confidence

he either attains

the base of nothingness now or else he

resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body

after death it is possible that the

evolving consciousness may pass on to

rebirth in the base of nothingness

this because is declared to be the

second way directed to the base of

nothingness

now this is an instruction for advanced

practitioners in the sense of buddha is

talking about a noble disciple he talks

about a noble disciple he's talking

about basically the

arya savaka who can be a sort of pana

onwards so when you get to this practice

you can start experimenting with

yourself and one of the pathways

towards the experience of nothingness is

to see the emptiness of all conditioned

reality

it's an experience of anata which

naturally happens

when you see the arising and passing

away of consciousnesses at infinite

consciousness

but it can also be done in a way where

you start to just reflect and see you

don't have to investigate but you're

just observing and seeing it as an

impermanent

process

seeing it as an impersonal process

so some people have a very deep

experience of anata and when they

go sit down for meditation their mind

immediately goes to

the base of nothingness

immediately quiets down and experiences

this deep equanimity so you can try it

for yourself and start to see

the different processes of the mind and

the body start to see the external world

around you and see it as being

impersonal

and when you do it

uh quite consistently

when you see this throughout your day

your mind you see

is very silent very tranquil

it doesn't cling on to anything it

doesn't stick to anything

it just stays in this level of

nothingness it just stays in this base

of nothingness

and in this experience of equanimity

so when this practice is done of the

emptiness of self

it is one way to get to nothingness

there is another way as well as we'll

see

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

i am not anything belonging to anyone

anywhere

nor is there anything belonging to me

and anyone anywhere

when he frequently prac when he

practices in this way and frequently

abides thus

his mind acquires confidence in this

space

once there is full confidence he either

attains to the base of nothingness

now or else he resolves upon it with

wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death

it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on to rebirth in

the base of nothingness

this because is declared to be the third

way directed to the base of nothingness

so when they talk about i am not belong

i am not anything belonging to anyone

anywhere

nor is there anything belonging to me in

anyone anywhere this is a deeper level

of anata a deeper level of experience of

anata and emptiness

that is to say you see the it's not self

of relationships

you see the not self of possessions

you know the the aggravation and the

irritation

the mental movements that arise because

of relationships and things happening in

relationships

even whether they're good bad or

indifferent can cause the mind agitation

in one way or another

but once you start to see that

you know this is not my father this is

not my mother this is not my son

this is not my house this is

this is not my land this is not my

clothes you see it all as just being

having arisen

even your parents even your children

even your friendships even your

relationships all arising because of

various circumstances

as is conditions and choices

and so you unravel those and see

that if you personalize take personal

relationships there is an expectation

and anticipation of it to be a certain

way

this causes mental agitation in the mind

which causes restlessness and anxiety

and all kinds of craving but if you see

this as all being impersonal

you have loving kindness in your

relationships you have compassion in

your relationships you have mudita or

altruistic joy in your relationships

you have equanimity in your

relationships

then

those relationships will not only

flower but they will develop for the

sake of experiencing

deeper happiness

experiencing deeper satisfaction and

ultimately seeing with wisdom

uh the non-attachment to those

relationships

you are content and you have no

expectations and this causes the mind

deep equanimity

when you see it in this way let's use to

say the not self the anata of all

relationships then your experience then

your mind experiences

this base of nothingness so this is one

way to get there as well

now we're going to get into the base of

neither perception nor non-perception

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now and

sensual pleasures in life's to come

sensual perceptions here and now and

sensual perceptions and lives to come

material forms here and now and material

forms in lives to come

perceptions of form here and now and

perceptions of forms in life's to come

perceptions of

the

imperturbable

and perceptions of the base of

nothingness

all are perceptions

where these perceptions cease without

remainder that is the peaceful

that is the sublime

namely the base of neither perception

nor non-perception

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus

his mind acquires confidence in this

space

once there is full confidence

he either attains to the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

now or else he resolves upon it with

wisdom

on dissolution of the body after death

it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on to

the rebirth in

the base of neither perception nor on

perception

this speakers is declared to be the way

directed to the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

so what the buddha really here what we

want to look at is the perceptions of

the imperturbable

and the perceptions of the base of

nothingness

all our perceptions

and when we talk about perception what

we're talking about is the memory aspect

of the mind the mind that recognizes the

mind that notes the mind that labels

when i see this computer screen i

recognize it to be a computer screen

because i have seen it before

it's rooted in memory

so perception is that aspect of the mind

that labels something as this color or

this quality when you have an experience

of feeling

it can be pleasant painful or neutral

and the quality of that feeling of

saying that this feeling is pleasant

that noting of that is perception

in the same way when you are in

jhanas up until the level of nothingness

you have a perception that you are at

the space of infinite space

or at this base of infinite

consciousness or at this space of

nothingness

and you experience along with those the

corresponding brahmaviharas so you have

the perception of compassion and

infinite space

you have the perception of

joy in infinite consciousness and you

have the perception of equanimity in

nothingness these are all perceptions

these are all of recognition of the mind

seeing and cognizing what is present

when you get to neither perception or

non-perception you let go of that

what happens is at this level of

nothingness

there comes a point where

when you're radiating equanimity

that ceases as well

and when you try to radiate again

there's a slight tension

uh felt in the mind in the form of not

wanting to continue doing that now the

mind is very satisfied and ceasing all

of these coarser perceptions

at that point you take the quiet mind

when you take the quiet mind this quiet

mind is just deep collectedness that you

have this quiet mind doesn't have any

quality except of just knowing it being

there

it's there's nothing there there's

nothing to hold on to and so in that

sense there's nothing to perceive

and so when you are in neither

perception or non-perception

there's no recognition going on there's

no memory going on when you're at the

first level of quiet mind so to speak

there might be coarser impressions of

formations you might start to see into

different past lives you might start to

see different images you might start to

see different patterns

but these are very inconsistent sort of

proto thoughts

they're not fully formed they're not

fully recognized

and so you just let them go

and you let them go by letting the mind

automatically

6r

you just release it you keep releasing

and relaxing and the mind gets quieter

and quieter and quieter until there's

nothing but this absolute silence of the

quiet mind

and in that there is no perception

but there's still the perception

that there is

the quiet mind there is still the

perception that there is this stillness

so it's neither perception nor

non-perception

and so if somebody is

experiencing neither perception or

non-perception and then let's say they

become attached to that that

experience

and they

go on and and at death it's quite

possible that the

the rebirth that occurs will happen in

the realm of neither perception or

non-perception and in neither perception

or non-perception there's absolutely

nothing going on there in the weight of

something that can be recognized you

can't fully recognize contact you can't

fully recognize

perception you can't fully recognize

perception you can't really recognize

intention you can't fully recognize any

kind of cognition

but there's still a sense of

awareness of

existence

there's still an awareness of some kind

of consciousness there's still an iota

of awareness tied to the experience of

the

base of either perception non-perception

so what that is is the subtlest

formation of conceit

that formation of i am i exist

that is dependent upon this idea of

there is an self there still

when that is let go of then there is the

experience of cessation of perception

feeling and

consciousness

so when you are in your meditation and

you come upon the quiet mind

see the quiet mind as being impersonal

as well and continue to just be there

there comes a point where the mind might

fluctuate

the attention might fluctuate either it

becomes bored because there's nothing

going on and so it starts to spout out

different things in the way of

restlessness

or uh it got it gets bored and starts to

get dull

and what happens is when it gets dull

certain thoughts come up certain other

objects come up and then eventually

before you know it the mind is now in

slot and torpor

when you have too much energy and

restlessness you balance it out with

slight intention of the enlightenment

factors related to tranquility

so you have the mindfulness you have the

the tranquility you have the equanimity

and you have the collectiveness

if the mind has any kind of slot

intorper you focus your attention a

little bit by having more interest in

the object having more interest in

seeing the quiet mind and this

experience brings about a little bit of

joy

a little bit of that interest from the

investigative factor

and it brings up a little bit of energy

so the mind now becomes sharper

and more attentive to the quiet mind

eventually when everything comes into

balance there is just a full flow of

quiet mind and then because of no more

fuel

or anything to land upon in terms of the

attention because of no more fuel in

terms of the sense of i am

everything is dropped

everything ceases

and there is the experience of cessation

perception

feeling and consciousness

and now the buddha goes on or the suit

that goes on when this was said the

venerable ananda said to the blessed one

venerable sir here beku is practicing

thus

it might not be

and it might not be mine

it will not be

and it will not be mined

what exists

what has come to be

that i am abandoning

thus he obtains equanimity venerable sir

does such a beku attain nibana

so this process of practicing thus he

says it might not be and it might not be

mine it will not be and it will not be

mind what exists what has come to be

that i am abandoning

what he's talking about is formations

he's talking about different kinds of

formations that the mind can clutch onto

oftentimes there might be different

kinds of disconnected thoughts and

patterns and ideas and concepts and then

the mind becomes interested in that as

soon as the mind becomes interested in

that it comes out of neither perception

and non-perception and starts to

follow that line of thinking

when that happens

now you are taking that to be self

you're taking the formation of i am and

personalizing it taking it personal and

now the mind is no longer in equanimity

no longer

elected no longer disenchanted no longer

dispassionate

but if you see these formations arise

and you just let them go use the 6r

process and just let them go then the

mind develops further more refined

equanimity that comes in the form of

disenchantment that comes in the form of

this passion and what exists what has

come to be that i'm abandoning that can

also be extended to be saying

taking

or rather abandoning and letting go

of any kind of idea of a self in any of

the aggregates specifically formations

because at this point in the practice

itself

you only have the mentality in any

formations that arise are just quickly

let go of it's almost automatic as soon

as something arises as soon as you see

the tiniest vibration you just let go of

it

and then you acquire equanimity when you

talk about equanimity here

i'm going to say that it's not the

equanimity you experience in nothingness

it's an equanimity that is in the form

of dispassion disenchantment and

dispassion

so then the buddha says

one biku here ananda might attain nibana

another biku here might not attain

nibana and so ananda asks what is the

cause and reason venerable serve

why one biku here might attain nibana

while another biku here might not attain

nirvana

here ananda ibiku is practicing thus it

might not be and it might not be mine it

will not be and it will not be mine

what exists

what has come to be that i am abandoning

thus he obtains equanimity

he delights

in that equanimity welcomes it and

remains holding on to it

as he does so his consciousness becomes

dependent on it and clings to it

a beku with clinging ananda does not

attain nibana

but venerable sir

when that beku clings what does he cling

to

to the base of neither perception nor

non-perception ananda

when that bhikkhu clings venerable sir

it seems he clings to the best object of

clinging

when that beku clings ananda he clings

to the best object of clinging or this

is the best object of clinging namely

the base of neither perception nor

non-perception

this state is so refined

that

there's

there's still something that can happen

in terms of clinging but once you go

beyond the state there's nothing to

cling on to

but in this state of quiet mind in the

state of neither perception and

non-perception the mind can still

identify with the quiet mind and when

you do that then you are no longer in

the base and you're starting to cling to

that when the mind becomes disenchanted

and dispassionate there is a tendency

there can be a tendency for the mind to

take that as the ultimate and then see

everything as dispassionate but that's

still not the ultimate because it's

still

within conditioned reality

when you cease any kind of

identification with this process whether

it's the quiet mind whether it's the

this enchantment or the dispassion

then there is the natural unfolding the

natural progression into the cessation

of perception feeling and consciousness

and there is no clinging there at all

there's no holding on to anything there

at all

and when one comes out of it one sees

the links the dependent origination

and experiences nirvana

so this is why it's known as the best

object of clinging because it's the most

refined

whether it's in the practice or whether

it's in the realms in the 31 realms of

existence

then the buddha goes on to say here

ananda ebiku is practicing thus

it might not be and it might not be mine

it will not be and it will not be mine

but exists what has come to be

that i am abandoning

thus he obtains

equanimity he does not delight in that

equanimity welcome it or remain holding

to it since he does not do so his

consciousness does not become dependent

on it and does not cling to it

it be crew without clinging on the

attains ibana

so when you let go of the subtlest

formation of conceit the subtlest

formation of i am

then there is experience of cessation

and from that cessation

you start to see something because your

mind becomes so pure

your mindfulness becomes so sharp that

it's starting to starting to see

as the lengths of uh dependent

origination arias and pass away without

attachment without identification and

because of not grasping there is the

experience of ibana

now one uh important piece of advice

here is when you are in the a channel

when you are in need of perception and

non-perception it's important to reflect

back spend a couple of minutes after you

come out of your practice

with your eyes closed start to see just

let the mind intend and retrospectively

look at what happened

when that happens you might start to see

different things and all you have to do

is 6r

this makes the mind more purified and

more clarified and it sharpens the

mindfulness so that it's even sharper

when it experiences the links of

dependent

origination so ananda says

it is wonderful venerable sir it is

marvelous the blessed one indeed has

explained to us the crossing of the

flood independence upon one's support or

another in other words he's saying

you've explained us the way to get to

nibana through this gradual process of

unfolding through these different levels

of cessation dependent upon the other

dependent upon cofactors

what venerables sir what is noble

liberation

here ananda a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now and

central pleasures in lives to come

sensual perceptions here and now and

sensual perceptions in lives to come

perceptions are formed here and now and

perceptions of

forms and lives to come perceptions of

the imperturbable

perceptions of the base of nothingness

and perceptions of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

this is an identity as far as identity

extends

this is the deathless namely the

liberation of the mind through not

clinging as i said

that i am formation this is the identity

as far as identity extends

when you let go of that you experience

the unconditioned

you experience a cessation of all

conditions in the form of perception

feeling and consciousness

and the mind becomes liberated through

not grasping through not clinging so

that noble liberation really is pointing

towards

towards full awakening where the mind

when it comes back online doesn't even

hold on to any of that experience of joy

and relief and seeing it as mine

it just sees that whole process

of impersonal impersonality it sees it

as being impersonal and so when that

happens there's no clinging in the form

of conceit

there's no clinging in the form of

ignorance

and so when those feathers drop and the

other feathers depended upon that drop

that is the restlessness the craving for

form the craving for the formless

and the ignorance obviously

then there is

the complete dissolution of

the the the fetters there is the

completely

uh complete destruction of craving the

complete destruction of identification

and that is the liberation of the mind

through not clinging

thus ananda i have taught the way

directed to the imperturbable

i have taught the way directed to the

base of nothingness i have taught the

way directed to the base of neither

perception or non-perception

i i have taught the crossing of the

flood independence

upon one support or the other i have

taught noble liberation

what should be done for his disciples

out of compassion by a teacher who seeks

their welfare and has compassion for

them that i have done for you

there are these roots of trees these

empty hats

meditate ananda do not delay or else you

will regret it later

this is our instruction

to you

any questions

comments remarks

[Music]

hey delson you might want to

talk about that little um experiment or

um well experiment practice that we did

with you um a few weeks ago how we sat

in a circle

it could be done um perhaps by other

people or at least for them to you know

watch their mind in that way

yeah so what we did was we uh

we sat in a little circle and we went

through

majamenikaya111 but we didn't go through

it

completely what we did was we stopped at

the first jhana

or any of the channels

and picked out the different details

so in there sariputta sees the different

factors of the jaundice he sees for

example in the first jhana he sees the

bitter and bachara he sees

the uh joy he sees the comfort of the

body he sees the

um

well what he sees really is the five

aggregates in the form of mentality

materiality he sees the contact feeling

perception intention attention he sees

mind he sees enthusiasm

he sees the decision

he sees

he sees chana and so on so all of these

different factors

what we did was we started looking at

them and so we read it uh understood it

then went into the practice

we went into the practice

and then we

saw it bit by bit so what you were doing

was

you weren't becoming the jhana

you weren't the mind experiencing the

jhana all it was is seeing how the mind

experiences

as it arises and passes away the contact

seeing the contact of mind with loving

kindness for example seeing the feeling

of loving kindness seeing the perception

of loving kindness seeing how mind

intends towards loving-kindness seeing

how attention stays on loving-kindness

seeing all of these different co-factors

when they arise

the point here is not to look for them

not to investigate in the form of

analyzing and trying to see and

anticipating and expecting them

it's just to see when they arise and

pass away but that seeing the

impermanence of that

one immediately lets go of any

attachment to the janna and goes on to

the next channel so we did this for each

of the four janas and then later on we

did it with another group and we did we

went through each of the

eight genres and um

they all had a wonderful experience i

think david can talk a little bit about

his experience when we did that

oh oh thanks just give it over to me

yeah of course

um

i thought it was really interesting

because

what you did was uh well we set a timer

and you said okay everybody just go into

the first jhana i was like oh sure yeah

i'll just

go right into the first jonah but

in fact you actually did because what

you're doing

is you said

just observe the factors that you had

laid out from the suta

in the jhana you know if there's

unification if there's joy if there's

uh you know any of these other factors

see if that's there and it's almost like

as you watch things the jhana came up by

itself because you were no you weren't

trying

to get it to happen

it was just happening on its own

and it's almost like the mind said oh

okay i'm fine i'll i'll do it for you

you know as long as you don't you know

yell at me or anything

and uh

it did come up and so then we

went around the circle and we talked

about what we saw

and

then he says well okay we're going to do

the second jonah

and um so we did the second john and we

did our 10-minute thing

and

you know one thing i you know i'll point

out to the group which i'll you know i

pointed out to delson and the others was

sometimes when you're first starting

is um

this person

sometimes when you're first

starting

with the meta the meta can kind of come

up to the head

but it's really and you think oh well i

must be the fortunate but no no it's not

you don't just go womb like that there's

a process of going through those

jaundice

and

you know first my the meta was in my

heart and then then it jumped up into my

head

i thought well that's really light and

what happened to the other ones in

between

well then i noticed it kind of went back

down

or or it was there

and but it was changed you know it

changed into a quieter and there's the

second jhana

and then the then you continued another

10 minutes the timer goes off okay and

we talk about it third jonah

and then uh

just watching the mind going on sir

john's not going to come up

well it did and

equanimity was there

quietness the body was kind of

disappeared you know all the factors

were there

and then all of a sudden it just goes

from

down here to goes

[Music]

and then it's up here in the head it was

just such a clear

um moving of the jhana

that it was really helpful to see that

whole process

and i missed the second session so i

can't tell you about the rest the next

day

but um just watching

your process watching your mind and not

necessarily pushing it along was really

helpful

so

anybody else got anything

hey delson

yes

uh this is john mott i'm sorry i have

barking dogs on mute when they uh

when they come up

excuse me um

i'm really interested in and uh one of

those powerful things about the practice

for me has been the insights um

and just sort of the way that the mind

works and

and the way that that intersects with

the world and that's

that's been the most powerful part all

of the stuff that happens that arises

and passes away phenomenon and i don't

even pay attention to that anymore it's

just this layer upon layer upon thing

where i go oh that's how the mic works

oh oh wow there's another thing i needed

to see i'm just curious um

sort of

the insights that you've gained because

you're obviously very far along and i

have a great deal of respect for that

so oh my god you don't

so you want to know the kind of things

that uh i've experienced in the john as

you're saying

that you've gained

well i think the most important insight

here is to see the impersonal nature of

the genre themselves so in other words

you know you don't take it personally

you don't even take the object of

meditation personally it the even the

object of meditation let's say when you

first start out with loving kindness

or if you have uh radiating compassion

or whatever it might be

that arises because of an intention that

arises because of different

arising of causes and conditions that

include the different factors of

mentality materiality but that's all

impersonal as well so even though it

seems like you're you or the self is

intending the loving kindness

just because uh it seems like it is it's

not really you who is doing it

so that comes about later and you start

to see and reflect and understand that

even this process of jhana as long as

you're not pushing as long as you're

allowing it to happen and unfold

naturally you start to get this deeper

insight on in the imperson

into the impersonal nature of jhana

themselves

thank you

you're welcome

delson frank denuzo can you hear me

yes hello thank you thank you for your

talk today as well

uh i have a question regarding you were

talking at one point about having mind

as the object of meditation

and

uh adjusting for

sloth and torpor or restlessness the

opposite

i seem to have uh trouble

at doing that i'm kind of behind the

like three steps behind by the time i

recognize what's going on it's kind of

too late right i've already been

overtaken by

torpor and i and sometimes i can get

back sometimes i can't i have to walk

but i would like for you to

detail a little bit more what you mean

by

take a greater interest in your object

of meditation it sounds so simple and it

seems so easy yet when i'm there and not

so much correct

uh

one example would be

did you have a favorite subject in

school

uh

i do arts the arts

of any type you know

right and when you have a favorite

subject when you do any kind of arts

when you're doing any kind of creativity

uh do you have to do you have to make

like a make an effort to do something or

does it just flow because you have

natural interest in it indeed i've heard

this talked about before it does seem to

just flow it's it's much less it takes

much less effort to do that because

you're enjoying yourself because you

like the subject because you're into the

subject much more yeah

in the same way when you have slot in

torpor or even restlessness it's

happening because of boredom

that's really the underlying factor here

the boredom eventually what happens is

because you come to this very subtle

level of mind

there's no longer any kind of sensory

input

or very little if at all but actually in

a quiet mind it's just all mentality

so because there's nothing going on the

mind isn't used to it the mind is used

to

having all kinds of sensory activity

going on i mean right now there's

millions and millions and millions of

different arising and passing away of

sensory consciousnesses because you're

listening to me you're watching the

screen your mind might be reflecting on

what's going on you're sitting in the

chair and so on and so forth so

so when you come to that quiet mind all

of that dissipates all of that is

quieted down and the mind being used to

that no longer has any stimuli no longer

has any kind of thing that's going on

so when it sees itself it starts to

become disinterested when it becomes

mind watching mind eventually just

becomes bored of that so the way to

bring up that joyful interest the way to

bring up that

interest into your objective uh

meditation in this case being the quiet

mind

is really being able to

first and foremost

when you see that the mind has gone into

slot interpreter that's a good step

because first you recognize that there

is slot interpret present that

immediately brings back your mindfulness

recognizing itself is mindfulness in

action

when you recognize it and you release it

and now you start to have an intention

of just

just tightening a little bit

lightning a little bit your focus your

your attention

on the object of meditation in this case

with the mind so it's like

let's say you know maybe for me for

example when i was in school mathematics

was my least favorite subject and i

wouldn't pay attention to it at all i

had no interest in it at all i didn't

know anything about numbers and

calculus and this and that so i never

really paid attention to it but when it

came to things like literature and

writing my mind was effortless when it

came to just

looking at it because there was a

tightening of attention but when i was

in mathematics class my attention was

all over the place because it had become

so loose

so this tightening of that when you see

when you're doing whatever creative work

you're doing you see there's a there's a

collectedness there there's a collecting

of attention

one thing at a time you're you're doing

one thing at a time but it seems like

it's flowing

so in that same quality of feeling is

that that quality of feeling when i say

tightening your focus a little bit

typing your attention

and if i understood what you just said

recognition is the first step

in that process correct so that's a good

place to start right yes okay yeah as

soon as you

yeah as soon as you recognize you're

already making the effort that effort

then brings up energy brings up a little

bit of interest already because of that

activity it dissipates the slot and

torpor and now all you have to do is

intend

collecting the mind around mind itself

again

beautiful thank you very much nelson

you're welcome

hey let me jump in here with some plugs

here for some of the work we've been

doing with delson over the last few

weeks

as you can see behind me

uh he's been being interviewed by

venerable karuna who's with us under a

different name hi liam how you doing

there he is

and uh we've got uh we did some sessions

with um we just put out 31 planes of

existence

where delson goes through all of the

planes and talks about them we put out

the first one was about his background

and talking about twim

next one was about some upcoming brain

research

that is happening in the netherlands

and uh then we talked about uh

mindfulness and what is really the

meaning of mindfulness and what is twim

and what are the jaundice

um more detail the concentration versus

you know the genres that we know of

um

kind of you know i think delson you're

starting to call them pseudogenis

actually it's kind of an interesting

good name

um and some other things so there's

going to be an about seven different

videos

that are coming out and some of them are

out and just check ponte's channel and

i'm posting everything there and it's

plus it's on our front page

so a lot of interesting stuff plus i'll

add we made a video with most frequently

answered

asked questions frequently answered

frequently asked and answered questions

and we wrote down a whole list combining

a list from our site and the sutta

foundation site and sutavada foundation

site

and anything else we could think of

and

karuna asked elsin his opinion what were

the answers to all those questions like

trying too hard and can't find the

feeling and

and many of those things and and it's

about a half hour i think it's going to

be worthwhile watching

and

sending around to people who are having

difficulty with their meditation

so look for all those videos

anything else from anybody

i have a question

yes

can you hear me

yes i can okay great um and

thanks uh

david and delson i really appreciate

this this is

very very wonderful and i think uh

in delta we have a teacher who has

combined incredible knowledge of the

sutas plus

direct experience and that's

a rare and beautiful thing so thank you

for that and sharing it

not just uh like a pacheco buddha

keeping quiet about been having the

ability to

help other people

so i have a question about um

kind of a follow-up

on frank's uh question

uh what happens with me when i

uh

go

rather deeply into my sitting

is that at some point the 6r kind of

just falls away

because not much is coming up that i'm

perceiving or feeling

and there's a very deep um

satisfaction

i wouldn't

say that there's anything personal

attached to it that i can perceive

but it is

a satisfaction in just

being i will use that word

um are there pitfalls to that or things

perhaps that i'm not seeing

so is your object at that point uh quiet

mind yes

yeah so that's fine i would say that's

totally fine as long as you

don't have any kind of

other personal thoughts related to it so

if your mind just remains

just watching the quiet mind there comes

a point where even the quiet mind kind

of disappears

it becomes very subtle

and uh the mind is just

not landing on any object at all

so that contentment also will go away

and it will become let's say

disenchantment

that this enchantment will also go away

and that will become dispassion

and eventually

you just completely let go of it all so

there's not much you need to do here all

you have to do is continue to watch how

things unfold so just keep sharpening

the mindfulness to be able to see how

contentment transitions

into a quieter and deeper level of quiet

mind to the point that it becomes so

subtle that it's almost not even there

it's almost like

and i i caution myself to use this word

it's almost like there's just pure

awareness there's nothing else

like there's nothing the mind is landing

on right but that awareness itself

should not be considered to be taken as

some kind of a

self or something like that it's just

it's so pristine there's like almost

nothing there you're like looking

through this very very polished glass

and you don't even notice that there's

any glass that you're looking through

when you get to that and that all that

requires is just soft gentle mindfulness

keep doing what you're doing and i would

i would say you need a little more time

to keep that unfolding process from

contentment to

uh disenchantment to dispassion to

cessation

as monty likes to say i'm i'm here now

in damasuka and he has he like to say in

the retreat three hours is good four

hours is better five hours is even

better so if you have the time you know

try to meditate for as long as you can

in one step

wonderful thank you

does may i ask something

yes please

i'm you he knew here and it's

i'm from the netherlands i'm new here i

was looking for the six hours i have

i have one time

one time one evening being with vimela

with bountiful ramsey but i think it is

12 or 13 years

ago

and i did not follow up with this

but um in the meta meditation i did it

in the in another babies with all the

different persons one after the other

but now i have a difficulty because i

was looking

i was look

i i look for the combination from the

new self

and the

the

the sentences

with may i be this may i be that may you

be that we do

so

how to combine i thought it's not

possible to do it in this way or you

have to know that there's not

what you are saying

that you do not mean what you are seeing

um can you

help me with it

yeah

so one thing you have to understand is

when you do this process of may i be

happy may i be well or you tell somebody

else may you be happy and so on these

are all verbalizations that happen in

specifically the first jhana

when you let that go so there comes a

point where you drop all of that and all

you do is just experience the feeling

itself

so this meditation is not just

verbalizing which can help initially in

order to bring up the feeling

as i as far as i understand it in other

kinds of loving kindness practices

they use in some ways the phrases almost

like a mantra but there's not a lot of

feeling going on there might be but

there's not a lot of attention there

so my recommendation is when you start

to feel loving kindness the warmth of

loving kindness

when you verbalize let go of the

verbalization and put your attention and

rest your awareness on the experience of

the feeling itself

and then just watch how that feeling

develops watch how that feeling grows or

changes or whatever it might be this

process of watching how that feeling

changes

is actually a process of

seeing and perceiving impermanence when

you see that then that naturally leads

to the perception of anata as you said

yes

and when it when it becomes so very

quiet

um as the speaker before was telling

is

and you

cannot do it do it anything or

it

doesn't have to

to be it doesn't have to be done

something that it's just quiet just

staying and it is quiet

can you see that as a radiation

no let me tell you different

because you were speaking about relation

relationship matter in the relations

this evening and i felt very touched by

it i thought this is the thing that i am

how to

radiate

but there is no one to radiate

yeah so

so you know one of

one of the experiences uh i just want to

know i mean i know you said you're new

to twins so i think i'll give you a

little bit of understanding of how the

steps are first you

yeah first you radiate to a spiritual

friend and then afterwards then you

radiate your different

people the categories of people and then

when it comes to actually radiating

to

uh in all directions you're taking all

beings

in that sense

not just your family members not just

your friends

not just the difficult people not just

the casual acquaintances but all beings

all animals and so on and so forth

there was an experience of uh somebody

who

was experiencing infinite space

and they're experiencing compassion it

was in one of the sessions that we were

doing where we were going through each

of the jhanas and as he was doing it one

of the things i indicated is when you

radiate compassion

there can be a time where you actually

start to connect with a specific

individual or groups of individual in

the meditation and sometimes you see

that that person is suffering

and sometimes you have an intention to

follow them up or send them an email or

message them and invariably you'll see

that yes indeed they were suffering and

they were looking up for somebody to

help them and things like that so

somebody went through this process doing

that

and they actually saw that somebody in

their life was suffering

and and they understood that uh you know

that person needed support uh needed uh

words of guidance and and help and so on

and uh

you know that was their decision to

whether they wanted to act upon it or

not but that can happen when you radiate

loving kindness and when you radiate

compassion you can actually start to

connect with certain people and it just

gives you a reminder to stay in touch

with them and see how they're doing and

so on

so in reality

then

you take make contact with the person

yes

it's a step further

thank you very much

you're welcome

nelson um since we're talking about the

arupa jhanas

um i wondered if you could just uh give

us a few thumbnail sketches of what it's

like to be there

what are the what are the beans

experience in the

upper realms

yeah beyond the form realms and the

formless realms number one all that that

is there is mentality we talk about

mentality materiality that really is

talking about

mind and factors of the mind that's

mentality or nama

and rupa which is the body itself made

up of the four great elements or the

four states of matter as we understand

in modern understanding

but the arupa janas there's only

mentality so there's still some kind of

contact there's still some kind of

feeling there's still some kind of

perception there's still some kind of

intention there's still some kind of

attention the experience of infinite

space somebody who has an experience of

being in infinite space

being a being in infinite space

they have no body

there's no experience of any kind of

body there's just contact in the form of

the understanding of an infinitude of

space there's just the feeling and

perception of the infinitude of space

there's no

borders anywhere it's like uh

you know i mean qualitatively speaking

it's that kind of experience where you

become one with the universe

but that being there is still that sense

of i am there's still that sense of

i exist you know it's not verbalized but

it's just understood as

here i am and i am infinite space

infinite consciousness is interesting

because then the awareness becomes so

refined that you start to see mental

contact and that mental contact is in

the form of different kinds of

perceptions different kinds of feeling

and perception

and that is just basically

not flickering obviously because that

there's no eye there

it's not listening to anything it's just

frames of thoughts

they're like they're like

different frames of thoughts that arise

and pass away and you're just watching

this flow of the frames of thoughts

arise and pass away and that's all

that's going on and it's happening but

along with that there's an experience of

some kind of relief some kind of and by

the way there is a lot of relief because

there's no body there the body has so

much

pressure so much

suffering so much

other kinds of pain and

pleasure and things like that but none

of that is experienced here

in nothingness

there is this idea that there is not

even the seeing of the frames of

individual thoughts there's just this

experience of

nothing

and the way that sense of understanding

is i am nothing you know there comes a

point in somebody's experience of

meditation where they realize

there's nothing to hold on to i am

nothing that's the same kind of

perception that happens with these

beings there they experience the sense

of

i am nothing and they think that to be

the superior

they think that to be the supreme that

this sense of i am nothing

now neither perception or non-perception

is very interesting because there's no

recognition of what's going on in the

way of the factors of mentality there's

no contact there's no feeling there's

very little perception there's no

intention at all

and so all there is

is this sense of i am

this is also known as

in some traditions as

uh

asmita samadhi

like in the yoga sutras they talk about

asmr samadhi which is the sense of just

existing

and not having anything else it's a

sense of i am existing

but not dependent on anything else but

that sense of i am existing itself

is uh also within conditioned reality

and so

when a being comes out of this

realm of neither perception and

non-perception whatever intention arises

just before the dissolution of that

experience

is liable to create the next set of

experiences in the next rebirth so

there's no intention going on there at

all

it only happens at the very end it's

very similar to the asanata beings but

there is still a consciousness of i am

there's still a consciousness of i am

existing and then when the intention

rises again it is liable to create

the next rebirth

and you're just swimming in space

not

doing anything

at least in infinite space you're

swimming in space there's just nothing

going on and then even the nothingness

is just

there's no sense of space either no

sense of dimension no sense up down here

there yeah

strange

is it really worth it to uh hang out

there for eighty four thousand major

couples in the

high i would get bored i would get yeah

i would easily yeah

like okay that was nice for five minutes

oh no another eighty three thousand

four hundred whatever maha kappas to go

okay

um uh why not uh shameless plugs for

your book you've got the book you just

put it on amazon pre-publication

yeah so right now i am working with the

uh the formatter to get it almost done

so we're about a few weeks before we

actually get it

in print but it is available on amazon

uh

uh on kindle

uh for pre-order and i've put the

tentative release date as december 3rd

it might come about earlier but i don't

know if you have a link david if you

want to put it in the chat but you can

go to that link and you can pre-order

okay

and then you're working on a much longer

book

right

yes that's going to take about a year

year and a half to actually finish and

that's the book on dependent origination

right now i'm still stuck in craving i

mean the chapter of creativity you're

sucking craving did you say

[Laughter]

so um

it's it's it's going to be a big one

it's it's going to be almost like an

encyclopedia of dependent origination as

much as

as much information as there about is

there about each of the links of

dependent origination it's going to be

there so we don't know how it's going to

be released it might be released in

different booklets or maybe he has one

massive volume but i'm going through all

23 links so that's going to be

the 12 links as we understand them when

it comes to suffering

and then the 11 links that lead to

ibana so that's

suffering onwards like

faith and pamoja and

sukkah and tranquility and collectedness

seeing reality as it is dispassion all

of the different links that we talk

about that lead to nibana

and you're you're basing that book on

the upanisa i guess

that's right

where everybody thought there was just

12 links but there's 23 links

the unknown links

and that's what we're all on right now

is we're on the 13 links right now

on the path to nibana

that's right

any further questions today

hey hi david this is pat hey patrick

nelson thank you delson um i i just

wanted to david to maybe our our dear

friend jotika there does she know that

uh

there's online courses available at

donnasuka.org

that she could take to maybe

uh help her get a better understanding

since she seemed to be asking that

question in case she doesn't know i just

thought i wanted to throw that out there

i endorse it

that's why people have done them

so anyway

if you if you want you should look at

the website if you don't know already

yes

yeah okay i heard it and i will thank

you

okay

thank you very much sure

guys delson i have one question about

two questions on my site

one is that

did i understand right in this genre in

this uh sutra you read

um if you experience each haruka janas

when you

be born

um you're gonna go to the next genre or

you're gonna basically be born

as a stream winner um or you're gonna at

the time of death you're gonna

basically experience the stream winner

or sensation

um so my second question is that um

um if your object is quite mine

and if you have got a very engineering

mind and problem solver mind and the

task of the day just descend on your

mind

and distract you a lot

what is your recommendation to practice

and calm it down and

getting back to that state of the um

quiet mind or the object of meditation

okay i i just wanted to clarify your

first question i was i was not

completely uh able to

uh understand exactly what you're asking

is it that uh

if somebody gets to a jhana are they

liable to be reborn into a new uh into

that realm associated with that genre

right for instance if you are

experiencing i don't know the infinite

consciousness

if you

reborn are you going to reborn in a

state of the

infinite uh i don't know nothingness or

if you experience nothingness in this

life

you're gonna experience the you know

perception

non-perception next lifetime

or if you experience the the last one

for john or eight john are you going to

experience the station at the time of

the deaths and uh

what what is the uh buddha's word on

that

yeah so i'm going to go back to the suta

itself

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides

thus

meaning

a person who becomes

attached to the experience of that jhana

continues to

progress

their mastery of that genre that can

lead to an attachment to the jhana

rather than seeing it as impersonal

and that can cause that being

to take rebirth

because what will happen is at the point

of dissolution of the body

the mentality the mind the formations

that arise

happen to arise because the mind

naturally inclines

towards that specific genre

and if that's the last

set of formations that arise there's a

there can be a tendency to cling to them

which can activate a new consciousness

that takes rebirth

so to speak in that particular brahmara

realm associated with that genre

so

if somebody is doing this and has

attachment to that genre it can cause

them to take rebirth there

if somebody attains you know attached or

has attachment to

neither perception non-perception

they won't go into cessation they will

only go into cessation when they let go

of it in meditation

so whatever jhana the mind is

most interested in and develops

what happens is because of that

continuous development of interest in

that genre there is a continual

strengthening

of formations rooted in that jhana

practice

those formations then give rise to

an experience that the mind will cling

to

and then cause rebirth in that

particular giant realm but that doesn't

mean that the person will move forward

into an into that the next realm or

something like that it's just whatever

realm associated with that with that

particular genre is where they will go

okay and and then i guess they're gonna

gonna reborn as human being or it's

gonna be different realm

well for example if you're in the first

shana and somebody is interested in the

first china and really likes it then

they'll be born in the first promo realm

associated

with the first channel

or with the second jhana with the

abhasarams with the third jana with the

tsubaki in the realms and things like

that so these are the different form

realms of the brahma realms they won't

be born as a human again they'll be

reborn as a brahma in that particular

realm

thanks um so i guess uh for the second

question

yeah the second question is

can you say it again please

yeah sure um so if the object of

meditation is quite mine and um you have

a very engineering mind and

problem-solving mind and

i don't know the task of the

day and deadlines and all of those

descend on your mind where you want to

basically go through

meditation and sit down and but all of

those suddenly comes and take you to

hindrances or restlessness and all those

um how to

basically um try to i mean even if the

6r doesn't work and even if the very

basic meta

um doesn't work just assuming that the

friend and all of those

um what is your recommendation for

basically getting to that stage of uh

quiet mind uh to practice i mean

some some days of course is better than

some other days

work might be busy

um compared to other days that work is

not as busy less deadlines less stress

so yeah just wanted to know what is your

recommendation to practice especially on

a difficult day

i would say it depends upon

the intention and what that means is

there's a there's a couple of sutas or i

think three sutas in one after the other

which which are all known as the

caitanya or the sudan intention

and what it talks about is

when there is an intention and there is

a planning and there's a tendency

towards something the mind is liable to

bring up a consciousness that

establishes into that object of

intention

so if you intend to through the day

which is to say you have something going

on in terms of a deadline it is going to

be difficult because your mind is

inclined towards that it also says that

if you if you don't have the intention

but you have the plans towards it or

your

underlying tendency inclines towards it

that's also liable to cause the

consciousness to establish into it

but if you

don't have an intention that means

and that's very difficult to do because

the mind is liable to create some kind

of intention or some kind of an activity

even in meditation itself when you come

to the meditation and you put in some

kind of intention that causes the

consciousness to establish into that

particular intention

the attitude for meditation should be

you sit down and have no expectations

this goes one well it goes to the level

of beginner mind or one level below that

which is to say

i don't know what's going to happen with

the meditation i don't have any

intention let's see where our mind wants

to go as soon as you put an intention

there there is going to be resistance to

that intention in the form of hindrances

in the form of restlessness in the form

of disquiet

so instead of doing that what you should

do is just sit down

and allow your mind to become mindful by

just watching what's going on in the way

of the feeling in the body what's going

on in the way of where the mind is

inclining towards

basically using the four foundations of

mindfulness to let the mind kind of

disassociate from the sensual

experiences

and with whatever is happening in the

day or whatever is going to happen in

the day what you'll see when you do that

is there is a further quietening of the

mind and then it will collect itself

around something

instead of intending that i'm going to

radiate loving kindness instead of

intending i'm going to radiate

compassion or even instead of intending

i'm going to be in the quiet mind allow

the mind to go where it wants to go and

it will naturally incline towards

wherever it feels like it wants to go

and your job there is to just observe

its inten attention

let it rest there and then sticks are

whenever that attention swerves if you

do it in this way you'll find that the

mind quietens down much quicker

so i've done that a couple of times

especially letting the mind go and of

course it's just continue problem

solving and getting to the next and next

and next and we'll try to 6r and take it

back

uh but it's just keep going and going to

the planning mode and

the rest so um

and i've done some uh so you talk about

the four foundations

um is it that you recommend like go back

to breeding or the the formation of the

body or formation of the mind or mind

and look into that as well

you know the thing about the foundations

of mindfulness i see the foundations of

mindfulness going on even when you're

doing loving kindness even when you're

doing breathing even when you're doing

whatever it might be because when you

have loving kindness you have the

foundation

of mindfulness of the body when you see

or perceive warmth in the body you have

the feeling of loving kindness you have

you see the intention that arises

through the mind

you have the the actual loving kindness

which is the brahmavihara you might

notice a hindrance

you might notice this enlightenment

factor or whatever it might be and this

is looking at phenomena that have that

is happening within the mind so i i

would say that you know while it seems

like the four foundations are a separate

practice they're actually there present

in any kind of meditation you do where

there's twin whether it's breathing or

loving kindness

as to the recommendation of whether you

should do breathing or loving kindness

that's really up to you you should you

should try and experiment but if you're

going to do breathing

i understand that don't allow the mind

to focus on the breath so much that it

becomes concentrated allow the breath to

become a reminder of being attentive

and relaxing and letting go

okay

what was the sutras you said there are

three sutras that jesus to trust do you

have the name for those or the numbers

uh i think somebody actually typed them

in already it is

okay okay brilliant um

so going back to what you mentioned

about um just sitting down and let the

mind go wherever it wants to go

um

what if you just continue planning and

problem solving how do how should i

tackle that

ethics are and see

but more importantly when you six are it

you're recognizing now the mind is

restless

you

recognize it you release your attention

away from it you relax it

if you're doing it correctly if you

relax and you re-smile

the return process

just see where the mind collects around

that return process when you see what's

happening there the mind will naturally

collect around something whether it's

loving kindness or whether it's

compassion

or whether it's

the breath

or whether it's the quiet mind

so if you're

you're correctly doing the six hours

then the mind will naturally collect

around something

and that's what you have to see and

recognize and perceive

so can we by intention put that

object that mind gonna collect around

that or just observe

very the minor what is the object that

mind gonna get collect around it

there's two ways of doing it you can

have a slight intention meaning before

you sit down if you want you can do that

and say okay let's try loving kindness

or

and i would say for you it might be the

preferable way is to

just allow to see where the mind lands

upon because sometimes if you just allow

the mind to go into loving kindness it

might not want to be there maybe it

wants to be in compassion maybe it wants

to be an equanimity just see where it

wants to go to in the way of an object

of meditation

not in the way of going through the

thought stream of planning

see where it's collecting around in

terms of an object

so basically in terms of objects you're

talking about the problem of your any of

the four objects basically yes yes

okay thank you

you're welcome

uh hi nelson i i have

one question about um

the capabilities of

beings uh

in these realms

uh are they able to

um

uh

develop towards

uh nibana or even learn

or would that not be possible

just like in the hell realms and just

like in the brahmarams where the beings

are burning out their karmic fuel

dependent upon what they did in the

previous life it's the same thing in the

pajamas there's no capacity

to experience the dharma so to speak the

first brahmaram is quite possible

because there's still some verbalizing

there there's still some activity going

on there but then as you get to deeper

and deeper or subtler and supper levels

really what's going on is those beings

are just kind of blissed out you know

they're just walking

janna addicts and they're just i mean at

least in the form realms and they're not

doing anything else

uh in the arupa janas or the rupa realms

uh they're just burning out the karmic

fuel of that experience so if it's for

whatever mahakapa's that's what's going

on

there's no

capacity for them to

get deeper and experience nibana

right

thanks you're welcome

so maybe one or two more questions and

we'll um call an end to this

going once

hi nelson

hello

i i just wanted to um

say you did a really beautiful job with

the suit it really really is nice the

way you put it together and you're so

succinct with your timing and

everything's really beautiful

and um

when you were talking about mind is

watching mind

it brought up something for me that

[Music]

before the buddha meditation seems to

have always had a subject and an object

involved like a person and an object

always involved and then and then along

comes the buddha

he comes along and he says okay here's

what's going to happen the object is

going to be the subject

and turned it around

and

that keeps going through my mind and

this was what was happening with this

i kept coming back to that you know in

this particular thing

um

yeah and that brings about the

experience of anata being able to see

this as being impersonal

yeah exactly exactly

but um it's a flip turn what he does you

know

and um probably upset a lot of people

because they were working from the other

angle you know they must have been one

of the reasons why the six groups got so

mad and everything you know yeah but

anyway they were just terrible

anyway um

the um

oh i had a question wait a second

when do we do this

i was writing notes and um wait a minute

um

yeah

so what was being said in in the

aligadoopa masuta in um

22. it's regime and kind number 22.

the situation with arty was that he um

he wanted to engage things all the time

and um

and then the monks got angry and they

sent for the buddha said you've got to

straighten him out because there were

young monks that were coming there and

he was informing them the wrong way

and um it turns out if you just abandon

abandoned abandoned abandon and let go

let go go

that that's that's where this whole

thing ends up and one of the most

beautiful things about that was one uh

and enough appendicular pseudo because

when you look at enough advice to

another pentagon 143

then that's when you really feel well he

took the people through life he taught

them all these things and then in the

end when he's dying

and then nathan pindika was like a

roadie you know for i wrote i call him

the roadie when i talked to people about

him he was voting for the concerts and

made sure everybody had seats and they

had water and they had everything they

needed and lamps and space and

everything so he didn't always listen to

the buddha and this is why he wanted

help in the end he wanted the buddha to

guide him out of life but the whole

lesson

is to um let it go let it go let it go

let it go

and uh yeah

so yeah i'm glad you brought up uh

i'm sorry i no i that's just this

letting go this abandoning and

abandoning and bending and it seems to

work really well and when you get when

you get people in front of you who

haven't done anything have you done that

yet have you had have you had like a

retreat where

where ev everybody in the room they

haven't read anything about meditation

and then you start teaching them

it's it's crazy it's so incredible how

accurate this stuff is if you get people

who will listen to you and they'll write

down everything you say and do what you

ask and report back in the interviews

and everybody in the retreat is doing

that

it it was a shock

that when this happened it was a few

weeks back with 16. the 16 nuns that did

it with me it was quite something

and only one of them had had a uh had

had a uh experience um with meditation

slightly with vipassana but all the rest

of them hadn't cracked a book

had never read anything

and were only doing

centering prayer sort of thing from the

christian side of you of sitting in

prayer you know

and they took to it like ducks take to

water it was something else that

happened amazing stuff

so

i just wondered if you had ever had this

experience with people before like that

yeah i have uh whether i was doing

online retreat i mean mostly online

retreat guidance uh there have been

other people who had no experience with

the meditation and if they just follow

the instructions

uh to the letter

you start to see basically it's like a

formulaic thing you start to see the

same thing

in terms of them experiencing joy and

then they let go and then they

experience the second genre and then

they experience the third and

finally they experience stream entry at

some point so

yes if you follow the instructions

and and don't even have to have any kind

of understanding of the suttas the

understanding of the suthas will come

later when you actually practice

and the practice actually informs you

and the experience teaches you and you

kind of like

unlock the code of the sutas and a lot

of the things that you see you kind of

recognize from your own experience

i just want to touch a little bit on

what you're talking about with

anathepindaka 143.

if you look at that particular suta the

way sariputta is talking about he says

my consciousness will not land on

any of the five aggregates any of the

sixth sense bases and in this world or

the next and so on and so forth there's

an encapsulation of all that process

where there's a suta in which

uh

in which ananda asks

uh sariputta is there a con is there a

perception or is an experience that is

beyond the sixth sense basis

that goes beyond the five aggregates

that goes beyond uh the realms as in

terms of the arupa-janas that goes

beyond

the this world and that world and

sariputta says yes there is

and it is namely this the stilling of

all formations

the

uh

the uh

the the

relinquishment of

all clinging of all assets

the dispassion this enchantment the

dispassion the cessation the

the experience of nibana itself so if

you look at 143 from that context what

sariputta is doing is leading anata

pindaka through the unconditioned by

allowing his mind to let go let go let

go

until there's nothing that the mind

lands on

into and it experiences the uncond it's

a fun suit to memorize because to teach

someone to memorize is just i will not

cling to the eye and my consciousness

will not be dependent on the eye and you

do this through all the six sense

stories it's the same sentence over and

over and over again you're drilling and

drilling your head and some of them just

uh we played with that because they

wanted to learn something

to remember and we

chose to use that one and put it in the

first tense and let them use it and and

it really worked wonderfully because

most of them could remember it within a

few days they memorized prayers you know

and stuff so they're good memorized

that's wonderful

oh but it was such a good feeling to see

this leaving you know this what a way to

be ushered out

you know right away just amazing yeah

thank you for the suit i really enjoyed

it

okay i think um

could i say come here

oh yeah yeah sure go ahead i just wanted

to verify what uh

well

i mean you get my seal of approval

but what daleson had said to sister

keema was

true true for me in any case when i did

i just did the online retreats as you

know and um david and um

i

i knew

very little about buddhism i mean just

hardly anything and i hadn't really i'd

listened to maybe

a video or so but i knew very little i i

went into it with no expectations i just

followed along

i didn't kill myself with trying to

meditate all day and do all anything

extreme i just you know went about my

life and then i i made sure i did

what i needed to do you know what was

required and

you know i had great success and then

after that i started delving into

reading and studying more and and that

type of thing so

anyway that was my two cents worth i

just wanted to

yeah i think i think our best students

that come here don't know anything at

all

you know they haven't practiced you know

uh tantra

breath or tibetan

or

mtv of anything

you know mahayana theravada

nothing they just go well we just want

to meditate you know

and they don't really even know what the

goal is

right and they just figure it well

they'll get calm and relaxed

right and some of them even come and say

oh i thought this was a yoga retreat

but then they leave

that's true uh um i think uh who's it

russ said that when he was here but uh

then they leave

you know flying up into the jaundice

they had no idea and they left with an

amazing experience

but they had no idea what the background

was and like you did tommy was you had

to go and read what the heck all this

stuff was all about

and

yeah so right right so yeah so it's

it's just no expectations is the way to

start i guess

in the stay with that eyes you know

yeah

and your sitting should be

100 no expectations too well i

always tell people tommy i always tell

people to uh go into the sitting as as

if you were two years old and you were

you were peeking around the corner just

to see who's in the next room and you go

in just to see what happens next see

like nels delson said expecting nothing

but if you have kids you remember when

they were little and they'd walk around

all over the house trying to see what

this is and what that is

just to see what happens next with that

frame of mind and just sit

that's what you do

perfect

[Laughter]

or if you're the kids just sit down and

shut up

no i didn't know

then david

that's

funny right is that it or

let's share some merit okay

may suffering ones be suffering

free and the fear struck fearless being

may the grieving shed all

grief and may all beings find relief may

all beings share this merit that we have

thus acquired

for the acquisition of all kinds of

happiness

may beings inhabiting space and earth

devas and nagas of mighty power share

this merit of ours

may they long protect the buddha's

dispensation sadhus

[Music]

all right thank you very much we will

see everybody

next week if you so desire

and we'll just keep going uh sundays at

one o'clock our time

um into november with ponte

restarting again

and everybody have a good week and a

good city

[Music]

you

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

you get started

let's do it uh let me spotlight you here

okay the show is yours delson

all right thank you

so today we're going to be reading 106

and let me take time

reading this particular title here it's

uh

the way to the imperturbable

this is the only suit that where both

the pali and the english

are difficult to pronounce

and you can slip up but uh anyway

first have i heard on one occasion the

blessed one was living in the kuru

country where there was a town of the

kurus named kama sadhama

there the blessed one addressed the

biku's dust because

venerable sir they replied the blessed

one said this

sensual pleasures are impermanent hollow

false deceptive

they are illusory the prattle of fools

sensual pleasures here and now and

sensual pleasures and lives to come

sensual pleasures here and now and

essential pleasures

essential perceptions here and now and

sensual perceptions in life's to come

both alike are mara's realm mara's

domain

mara's bait

mara's hunting ground

an account of them

these evil unwholesome mental states

such as covetousness

ill will and presumption arise

and they can constitute an obstruction

to a noble disciple in training here

so the buddha is laying out the

the hindrances

there are different kinds of

distractions that can arise in the way

of sensory experiences

and what he says is

they are they both including the central

pleasures and sensual perceptions

whether they're here presently or they

will be

arriving in the next moment or whenever

it might be

all of them are considered to be

impermanent are considered to be

illusory considered to be impersonal

and the moment you take them personally

the moment you see this sensual

experience as

me mine or myself

then you are in as he puts it mara's

realm mara's domain you are in mara's

bait or mara's hunting ground

when we think about mara we we usually

or traditionally see him and see that

being as being some sort of a

demon or devil or tempter or whatever it

might be but really he's just a deva

who's uh

was just enjoying um sensual experiences

and his whole point or her old point

depending upon

how you see mara

is

to

to attract people or all beings towards

the sensual realm

um the whole point there is not to get

beyond that and to get beyond that is to

go through the process of jhana when you

get through the process of jhana you

start to become in you start to see

the emptiness of

all sensual experience

because what you see is

the five physical senses

they create through the process of

dependent origination

and experience

and this experience being dependent upon

the five physical sense spaces

is

also impermanent

because of the fact that it's dependent

but when you get into jhana

you come into an experience of seclusion

from sensual pleasures

seclusion from unwholesome states and

when we talk about seclusion from

unwholesome pleasures or sensual

pleasures in general

what we're saying is you're experiencing

a

another level of happiness this is a

super mundane level of happiness that

you experience in the form of pity

and sukkah that is to say joy and

comfort of body tranquility equanimity

and so on from the first jhana onwards

and this experience of the first journal

shows you that there is a joy beyond the

five physical pleasures the five

physical senses

and so you

start to see the emptiness

the hollowness the deceptiveness as the

buddha puts it the illusoriness

of physical sensual pleasures

and it's because of these unwholesome

mental states

uh or rather because of these sensual

pleasures unwholesome mental states

arise

because you identify with the body and

you identify with the physical senses or

you even identify with the mind itself

and you start to covet things or you

start to covet experiences that's

another way of saying

longing or craving

or you have aversion or you have a sense

of identity of who you are and who you

are not

based on your likes and dislikes this

happens through the process of clinging

independent origination

so all of these are dependent upon

sensual and even mental experiences

because as we will see

even ghana can be a state which you can

identify with and cause the mind to

start to cling to and and become

prideful and conceited and all kinds of

things

and this

uh

taking of the jhana personal

this process of identifying with the

jhana causes the mind to stay in that

particular genre because it either

enjoys it too much or thinks that it's

the ultimate when in fact it's still

within the realm of conditioned reality

so the buddha continues he says

therein because a noble disciple

considers thus sensual pleasures here

and now

and sensual pleasures in lives to come

central perceptions here and now

and sensual perceptions in life to come

constitute an obstruction to a noble

disciple in training here

suppose i were to abide with the mind

abundant and exalted having transcended

the world and made a firm determination

with the mind

so in other words here

somebody who is practicing

leading up to the fort china

when we talk about what he's going to be

talking about really is the fourth genre

onwards so he's talking about the

imperturbable

the imperturbable is always referred to

as

in regards to the fourth jhana in

regards to also what is known as

the beautiful

so

here somebody abides with the mind that

is abundant and exalted having

transcended the world meaning having

transcended the sixth sense spaces and

their experiences

by no longer paying attention to contact

uh physical contact and rather staying

with the fortuna which is that super

mundane state

when i do so there will be no more evil

unwholesome mental states such as

covetousness

ill will and presumption in me

and with the abandoning of them my mind

will be unlimited immeasurable and well

developed

now what he's talking about here when he

says once he abandons these different

hindrances you get into a state of jhana

and as you get towards the imperturbable

your mind becomes rid of barriers

your mind flows

it stays with its object of meditation

for quite a long time relatively

speaking before it does get distracted

then you use that whole process of the

six hours to come back again

and then it develops the immeasurable

which is to say it gets ready to become

more expansive

and start to experience infinite space

as we'll see when it radiates

any of the brahmaviharas

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus his mind acquires

confidence in this space

once there is full confidence

he either attains to the imperturbable

now

or else he resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on in the

imperturbable

this because is declared to be

the first way directed to the

imperturbable

so he says

he either attains

to the imperturbable or else he resolves

upon it with wisdom

so

either what happens is you experience

the fortuna and then you take that for

gianna to be me mine or myself

and you really enjoy it you have

self-confidence in it you're really

enjoying it and having this flow of

mind in the fourth ghana as it takes its

object of meditation

keeps the attention on the object of

meditation without any effort

or you see through it and understand

that this fourth jhana is just a step

towards nibana it's not the ultimate

and you see through it which is to say

you see it as being impersonal

you don't take it personally you see it

as impermanent because it arose because

of causes and conditions

it arose because of an intention and

then there was a state in which the

attention was

resting on the object of meditation for

quite some time there was a process in

which the the factors of the previous

jhanas started to dissipate and there

comes this experience of jhana when you

see it in this way the mind doesn't take

it to be personal doesn't take it to be

permanent and moves on either towards

the next level of the imperturbable or

even experiences nibana there can be

there have been pro

situations where even from the first

jhana onwards

upon seeing the jana as being empty of

self upon seeing the jhana as being

impermanent the mind inclines towards

cessation

and by doing so experiences

nibana

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

there are sensual pleasures here and now

and central pleasures in life to come

sensual pleasures hear central

perceptions here and now and central

perceptions in lives to come

whatever material form there is

all material form is the four great

elements and the material form derived

from the four great elements

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus

his mind acquires

confidence in this space

once there is full confidence

he attains

to the imperturbable now or else he

resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on to rebirth in

the imperturbable this because is

declared to be the second way directed

to the imperturbable

what's important to understand here is

that now we are getting into the

territory of what's known as the

arupa-janas

the arupa-janas are also known as the

ayathanas

ayatena means base or realm or sphere

and it also can be in the context of the

sticks sense bases the

salah salat ayathana are basically

the sixth sense bases so the ayatana of

infinite space is what

buddha is talking about here

and why is that because he says

here somebody experiences and

understands sensual pleasures as being

impermanent

sees sensual perceptions being

impermanent

and sees material form as well

being impermanent

so this is a natural process you don't

have to intend upon it in the same way

that you would investigate and analyze

and think about it it happens gradually

it happens naturally when the conditions

are right there will be the experience

of infinite space

and it's done through the experience of

radiating in the six directions

loving-kindness or compassion

when you do this you are no longer

with the physical body

your experience the contact the feeling

the perception the attention

it's now rooted in just the mental realm

now there is only the mentality which is

an experience of the formless rooms the

arupa-janas or the formless ayathanas as

they are called

now if you get attached to this that is

to say you really like it you make this

a big deal and you say this is wonderful

rather than

uh staying with your object what happens

is the mind sees it and says wow this is

amazing this infinite space

that the mind is experiencing is a

wonderful experience and it truly is

but if you make a big deal of out of it

and if you allow the mind to stay

attached to it you're not going to move

on further

and it can happen as the buddha says

that the attachment to this state can

lead

to rebirth in the arupa realm of

infinite space

so one either sees and attains the

imperturbable or experiences it with

wisdom meaning seeing it as being

impermanent and just allows the process

to happen

you see what's happening with the jhana

practice is if you're truly experiencing

it in the way that causes you to release

and let go

there is this meta awareness so to speak

a metacognition so to speak and what

that means is

the mind is watching how the attention

is moving in these different genetic

states whether it's rupa or arupa

rather than watching it being in the

state in other words rather than

experiencing it as a self that is

experiencing this jhana or the

arupa-janas it is just watching

itself it's like mind is watching mind

the attention is just on how attention

moves whether it's from the object

meditation to a hindrance or to seeing a

factory of the janus if you see the

factor of infinite space and

experiencing infinite space

that's one experience but you become

distracted and you have the 6r that just

know that yes there is an experience of

infinite space but returned back to the

experience of radiating loving kindness

or compassion now later on when you

develop the genre you can switch back

and forth and you can see when you are

radiating loving kindness or compassion

and there's a softer gentler feeling

especially with compassion and they

switch your gaze so to speak you switch

your attention to just radiating and

seeing the infinite space you might

actually experience a sense of

that infinite space you'll experience

this sense of floating and an infinitive

of space without any borders it depends

on where your attention is

but in that process of having your

attention on infinite space if you get

attached to it as we said

you will

not progress further and you will just

see that as being the ultimate rather

than letting go and experiencing

a higher state

or experiencing even possibly cessation

and then experiencing nibana

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now and

sensual pleasures in lives to come

sensual perceptions here and now in

sensual perceptions in life to come

material forms here and now and material

forms in lives to come

perceptions are forms here and now and

perceptions of forms in life's to come

both alike are impermanent

what is impermanent is not worth

delighting in

not worth welcoming

not worth holding on to

when he practices in this way and abides

frequently abides thus his mind acquires

confidence in the space

once there is full confidence he either

attains the imperfe imperturbable now

or else he resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death

it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on the rebirth in

the imperturple

this spekus is declared to be the third

way directed to the imperturbable

so now what you are seeing

or what you will see in infinite

consciousness because what he's talking

about now is infinite consciousness

the different arising and passing away

of sensory experiences through the eye

through the ear through the nose to

through the tongue through the skin or

through the mind

and what that means is it's not

happening at the level of the physical

sense basis there is an internal contact

at the level of mind that is perceiving

that is to save mental awareness or

mental consciousnesses

cognizing the arising and passing away

of various sensory consciousnesses

so when you do this this perception of

forms

is not just material form but this

perception of forms is seeing the

flickering

you might see in your periphery of your

mental vision a ring of light and it

starts to scatter or you might start to

see different flickers or concentric

circles

if the formations that are rooted in the

year faculty are stronger maybe you're a

musician or you use your ears more you

might have more refined hearing and the

contact internal contact in the air base

experiences some kind of flickering or

it can happen through the nose you might

smell phantom

odors in fragrances might happen through

the tongue some people experience like

jolts of electricity zipping through the

tongue or even some phantom tastes

some people experience something on the

skin but you have to understand all of

that is mental you might experience heat

you might experience tingling you might

experience

other things all of that is happening in

the mentality its internal contact has

nothing to do with the body

seeing this as impermanent you also see

that the arising and passing away of

these

is not worth holding on to because they

are liable to cause suffering if you

hold on to it

and not worth

seeing as self because in infinite

consciousness when you see the arising

and passing way of consciousnesses

even mental consciousness which is to

say you start to see the gaps between

thoughts

and you start to realize

that this process is not in anyone's

control

it's arising because of causes and

conditions

and it becomes tiresome after a while

but if you hold on to this experience

then you're not going to progress

further

if you take this experience

where you are actually radiating joy

and not looking at radiating joy but

rather your attention is now in all of

these different multifaceted experiences

then you become attached to it and you

think that that's the ultimate

so let go of that see it as being a

process a natural gradual process of

unfolding

what you are doing

invariably when you go through these

processes

is getting to levels of cessation

so what i mean by that is when you see

genres as levels of cessation what

you're seeing

now that we're talking about the

arupa-janas

when we talk about the fourth jhana it

is the cessation

of the experience of the third jhana

and there is a tranquilizing of bodily

formations the breath becomes

imperceptible

your

body becomes lighter you don't really

feel it unless there is some kind of

contact

from the external world unless there's

like a fly hitting your hand or

wind

if you're outside uh rubbing against

your face or whatever it might be

but other than that

there is

no experience of the physicality so it

is the cessation of that when you get to

infinite space there is a cessation of

the experience of the equanimity in

the fourth jana that you experience in

the fourth form ghana the rupa jana

when you get into infinite consciousness

there is a cessation of the perception

of infinite space

and now the compassion that's there in

infinite space

changes to joy and this joy as we talked

about before

it's just joy it's a very contented joy

you talk about it as empathetic joy

sympathetic joy or altruistic joy

so if you hold on to this

the mind might become attached to it and

as the buddha says it is possible that

the evolving consciousness may pass on

to rebirth in this particular realm

but those beings who have

gone through this process and become

attached to it

especially through one pointed

concentration one pointed focus

they see that as the ultimate

a lot of times when you see infinite

space or infinite consciousness that can

be mistaken to be an experience of

unification between

what is considered to be the self and

the universe there is this experience

that is

quite exhilarating quite profound but

ultimately it is in conditioned reality

then he goes on to say

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now in

central pleasures in lives to come

sensual perceptions here and now

and sensual perceptions in lives to come

material forms here and now and material

forms in lives to come

perceptions are form here and now

and perceptions are forms in life's to

come

and perceptions of the imperturbable

input

imperturbable

all our perceptions

when these perceptions cease without

remainder

that is the peaceful that is the sublime

namely the base of nothingness

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides us

his mind acquires confidence in this

space

once there is full confidence he either

attains to the base of nothingness now

or else he resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body

after death it is possible that the

evolving consciousness may pass on to

rebirth in the base of nothingness

this because is declared to be the first

way directed to the base of nothingness

but now the buddha is making a

delineation here and he's talking about

the fourth jana when he's talking about

infinite space and infinite

consciousness he calls that to be the

imperturbable but then he's not going to

talk about nothingness as a separate

category and neither perception or

non-perception as a separate category

but it's important to understand that

all of these are happening within the

realm of

china when it comes to the practice but

when you get to the fourth jhana that is

the base upon which you then experience

infinite space

infinite consciousness

nothingness neither perception

or non-perception

and here what the buddha is saying is

one sees the perceptions

of form one sees in terms of the

perceptions of different kinds of mental

activity that might happen and the

perceptions of the imperturbable and

what that means is

when you get to infinite consciousness

when you see the flickering or whatever

it might be

eventually that slows down and now the

mind becomes more attentive to the gaps

between each flicker and these gaps

are basically the cessation of the

perceptions of the imperturbable the

perception of the syst or the cessation

of the perception of infinite

consciousness

and as the gaps widen you start to get

deeper into or towards the level of

nothingness

and eventually some people have an

experience of just dropping down into

that experience of nothingness some

people see complete slowing down and

stilling of the mind and there is this

pristine

very exquisite exquisite silence that is

the nothingness

now when you are in nothingness

all external realities in terms of the

thoughts about what's happening in the

outside world cease

now the mind she sees within itself now

the mind is

experiencing very deep equanimity which

is tied to the experience of nothingness

now if you take this to be personal that

is to say you make a big deal out of it

and say wow this is amazing i'm just

going to stay here

you won't move forward

but if you allow the mind to naturally

unfold through this process of the

jhanas through the path to nibana

then you get into higher states as we'll

see

or you might experience with wisdom

the experience of cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

right there and then

there are those who have experienced

sensation just by having radiated

equanimity and then at a certain point

in suddenly

everything stopped for a bit and then

they came back online and experienced

nibana they saw the links independent

nation so there are those who have

experienced cessation from nothingness

as well

again because a noble disciple

gone to the forest or to the root of a

tree or to an empty hut considers thus

this is void of a self or of what

belongs to a self

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus his mind acquires

confidence in this space

once there is

full confidence

he either attains

the base of nothingness now or else he

resolves upon it with wisdom

on the dissolution of the body

after death it is possible that the

evolving consciousness may pass on to

rebirth in the base of nothingness

this because is declared to be the

second way directed to the base of

nothingness

now this is an instruction for advanced

practitioners in the sense of buddha is

talking about a noble disciple he talks

about a noble disciple he's talking

about basically the

arya savaka who can be a sort of pana

onwards so when you get to this practice

you can start experimenting with

yourself and one of the pathways

towards the experience of nothingness is

to see the emptiness of all conditioned

reality

it's an experience of anata which

naturally happens

when you see the arising and passing

away of consciousnesses at infinite

consciousness

but it can also be done in a way where

you start to just reflect and see you

don't have to investigate but you're

just observing and seeing it as an

impermanent

process

seeing it as an impersonal process

so some people have a very deep

experience of anata and when they

go sit down for meditation their mind

immediately goes to

the base of nothingness

immediately quiets down and experiences

this deep equanimity so you can try it

for yourself and start to see

the different processes of the mind and

the body start to see the external world

around you and see it as being

impersonal

and when you do it

uh quite consistently

when you see this throughout your day

your mind you see

is very silent very tranquil

it doesn't cling on to anything it

doesn't stick to anything

it just stays in this level of

nothingness it just stays in this base

of nothingness

and in this experience of equanimity

so when this practice is done of the

emptiness of self

it is one way to get to nothingness

there is another way as well as we'll

see

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

i am not anything belonging to anyone

anywhere

nor is there anything belonging to me

and anyone anywhere

when he frequently prac when he

practices in this way and frequently

abides thus

his mind acquires confidence in this

space

once there is full confidence he either

attains to the base of nothingness

now or else he resolves upon it with

wisdom

on the dissolution of the body after

death

it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on to rebirth in

the base of nothingness

this because is declared to be the third

way directed to the base of nothingness

so when they talk about i am not belong

i am not anything belonging to anyone

anywhere

nor is there anything belonging to me in

anyone anywhere this is a deeper level

of anata a deeper level of experience of

anata and emptiness

that is to say you see the it's not self

of relationships

you see the not self of possessions

you know the the aggravation and the

irritation

the mental movements that arise because

of relationships and things happening in

relationships

even whether they're good bad or

indifferent can cause the mind agitation

in one way or another

but once you start to see that

you know this is not my father this is

not my mother this is not my son

this is not my house this is

this is not my land this is not my

clothes you see it all as just being

having arisen

even your parents even your children

even your friendships even your

relationships all arising because of

various circumstances

as is conditions and choices

and so you unravel those and see

that if you personalize take personal

relationships there is an expectation

and anticipation of it to be a certain

way

this causes mental agitation in the mind

which causes restlessness and anxiety

and all kinds of craving but if you see

this as all being impersonal

you have loving kindness in your

relationships you have compassion in

your relationships you have mudita or

altruistic joy in your relationships

you have equanimity in your

relationships

then

those relationships will not only

flower but they will develop for the

sake of experiencing

deeper happiness

experiencing deeper satisfaction and

ultimately seeing with wisdom

uh the non-attachment to those

relationships

you are content and you have no

expectations and this causes the mind

deep equanimity

when you see it in this way let's use to

say the not self the anata of all

relationships then your experience then

your mind experiences

this base of nothingness so this is one

way to get there as well

now we're going to get into the base of

neither perception nor non-perception

again because a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now and

sensual pleasures in life's to come

sensual perceptions here and now and

sensual perceptions and lives to come

material forms here and now and material

forms in lives to come

perceptions of form here and now and

perceptions of forms in life's to come

perceptions of

the

imperturbable

and perceptions of the base of

nothingness

all are perceptions

where these perceptions cease without

remainder that is the peaceful

that is the sublime

namely the base of neither perception

nor non-perception

when he practices in this way and

frequently abides thus

his mind acquires confidence in this

space

once there is full confidence

he either attains to the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

now or else he resolves upon it with

wisdom

on dissolution of the body after death

it is possible that the evolving

consciousness may pass on to

the rebirth in

the base of neither perception nor on

perception

this speakers is declared to be the way

directed to the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

so what the buddha really here what we

want to look at is the perceptions of

the imperturbable

and the perceptions of the base of

nothingness

all our perceptions

and when we talk about perception what

we're talking about is the memory aspect

of the mind the mind that recognizes the

mind that notes the mind that labels

when i see this computer screen i

recognize it to be a computer screen

because i have seen it before

it's rooted in memory

so perception is that aspect of the mind

that labels something as this color or

this quality when you have an experience

of feeling

it can be pleasant painful or neutral

and the quality of that feeling of

saying that this feeling is pleasant

that noting of that is perception

in the same way when you are in

jhanas up until the level of nothingness

you have a perception that you are at

the space of infinite space

or at this base of infinite

consciousness or at this space of

nothingness

and you experience along with those the

corresponding brahmaviharas so you have

the perception of compassion and

infinite space

you have the perception of

joy in infinite consciousness and you

have the perception of equanimity in

nothingness these are all perceptions

these are all of recognition of the mind

seeing and cognizing what is present

when you get to neither perception or

non-perception you let go of that

what happens is at this level of

nothingness

there comes a point where

when you're radiating equanimity

that ceases as well

and when you try to radiate again

there's a slight tension

uh felt in the mind in the form of not

wanting to continue doing that now the

mind is very satisfied and ceasing all

of these coarser perceptions

at that point you take the quiet mind

when you take the quiet mind this quiet

mind is just deep collectedness that you

have this quiet mind doesn't have any

quality except of just knowing it being

there

it's there's nothing there there's

nothing to hold on to and so in that

sense there's nothing to perceive

and so when you are in neither

perception or non-perception

there's no recognition going on there's

no memory going on when you're at the

first level of quiet mind so to speak

there might be coarser impressions of

formations you might start to see into

different past lives you might start to

see different images you might start to

see different patterns

but these are very inconsistent sort of

proto thoughts

they're not fully formed they're not

fully recognized

and so you just let them go

and you let them go by letting the mind

automatically

6r

you just release it you keep releasing

and relaxing and the mind gets quieter

and quieter and quieter until there's

nothing but this absolute silence of the

quiet mind

and in that there is no perception

but there's still the perception

that there is

the quiet mind there is still the

perception that there is this stillness

so it's neither perception nor

non-perception

and so if somebody is

experiencing neither perception or

non-perception and then let's say they

become attached to that that

experience

and they

go on and and at death it's quite

possible that the

the rebirth that occurs will happen in

the realm of neither perception or

non-perception and in neither perception

or non-perception there's absolutely

nothing going on there in the weight of

something that can be recognized you

can't fully recognize contact you can't

fully recognize

perception you can't fully recognize

perception you can't really recognize

intention you can't fully recognize any

kind of cognition

but there's still a sense of

awareness of

existence

there's still an awareness of some kind

of consciousness there's still an iota

of awareness tied to the experience of

the

base of either perception non-perception

so what that is is the subtlest

formation of conceit

that formation of i am i exist

that is dependent upon this idea of

there is an self there still

when that is let go of then there is the

experience of cessation of perception

feeling and

consciousness

so when you are in your meditation and

you come upon the quiet mind

see the quiet mind as being impersonal

as well and continue to just be there

there comes a point where the mind might

fluctuate

the attention might fluctuate either it

becomes bored because there's nothing

going on and so it starts to spout out

different things in the way of

restlessness

or uh it got it gets bored and starts to

get dull

and what happens is when it gets dull

certain thoughts come up certain other

objects come up and then eventually

before you know it the mind is now in

slot and torpor

when you have too much energy and

restlessness you balance it out with

slight intention of the enlightenment

factors related to tranquility

so you have the mindfulness you have the

the tranquility you have the equanimity

and you have the collectiveness

if the mind has any kind of slot

intorper you focus your attention a

little bit by having more interest in

the object having more interest in

seeing the quiet mind and this

experience brings about a little bit of

joy

a little bit of that interest from the

investigative factor

and it brings up a little bit of energy

so the mind now becomes sharper

and more attentive to the quiet mind

eventually when everything comes into

balance there is just a full flow of

quiet mind and then because of no more

fuel

or anything to land upon in terms of the

attention because of no more fuel in

terms of the sense of i am

everything is dropped

everything ceases

and there is the experience of cessation

perception

feeling and consciousness

and now the buddha goes on or the suit

that goes on when this was said the

venerable ananda said to the blessed one

venerable sir here beku is practicing

thus

it might not be

and it might not be mine

it will not be

and it will not be mined

what exists

what has come to be

that i am abandoning

thus he obtains equanimity venerable sir

does such a beku attain nibana

so this process of practicing thus he

says it might not be and it might not be

mine it will not be and it will not be

mind what exists what has come to be

that i am abandoning

what he's talking about is formations

he's talking about different kinds of

formations that the mind can clutch onto

oftentimes there might be different

kinds of disconnected thoughts and

patterns and ideas and concepts and then

the mind becomes interested in that as

soon as the mind becomes interested in

that it comes out of neither perception

and non-perception and starts to

follow that line of thinking

when that happens

now you are taking that to be self

you're taking the formation of i am and

personalizing it taking it personal and

now the mind is no longer in equanimity

no longer

elected no longer disenchanted no longer

dispassionate

but if you see these formations arise

and you just let them go use the 6r

process and just let them go then the

mind develops further more refined

equanimity that comes in the form of

disenchantment that comes in the form of

this passion and what exists what has

come to be that i'm abandoning that can

also be extended to be saying

taking

or rather abandoning and letting go

of any kind of idea of a self in any of

the aggregates specifically formations

because at this point in the practice

itself

you only have the mentality in any

formations that arise are just quickly

let go of it's almost automatic as soon

as something arises as soon as you see

the tiniest vibration you just let go of

it

and then you acquire equanimity when you

talk about equanimity here

i'm going to say that it's not the

equanimity you experience in nothingness

it's an equanimity that is in the form

of dispassion disenchantment and

dispassion

so then the buddha says

one biku here ananda might attain nibana

another biku here might not attain

nibana and so ananda asks what is the

cause and reason venerable serve

why one biku here might attain nibana

while another biku here might not attain

nirvana

here ananda ibiku is practicing thus it

might not be and it might not be mine it

will not be and it will not be mine

what exists

what has come to be that i am abandoning

thus he obtains equanimity

he delights

in that equanimity welcomes it and

remains holding on to it

as he does so his consciousness becomes

dependent on it and clings to it

a beku with clinging ananda does not

attain nibana

but venerable sir

when that beku clings what does he cling

to

to the base of neither perception nor

non-perception ananda

when that bhikkhu clings venerable sir

it seems he clings to the best object of

clinging

when that beku clings ananda he clings

to the best object of clinging or this

is the best object of clinging namely

the base of neither perception nor

non-perception

this state is so refined

that

there's

there's still something that can happen

in terms of clinging but once you go

beyond the state there's nothing to

cling on to

but in this state of quiet mind in the

state of neither perception and

non-perception the mind can still

identify with the quiet mind and when

you do that then you are no longer in

the base and you're starting to cling to

that when the mind becomes disenchanted

and dispassionate there is a tendency

there can be a tendency for the mind to

take that as the ultimate and then see

everything as dispassionate but that's

still not the ultimate because it's

still

within conditioned reality

when you cease any kind of

identification with this process whether

it's the quiet mind whether it's the

this enchantment or the dispassion

then there is the natural unfolding the

natural progression into the cessation

of perception feeling and consciousness

and there is no clinging there at all

there's no holding on to anything there

at all

and when one comes out of it one sees

the links the dependent origination

and experiences nirvana

so this is why it's known as the best

object of clinging because it's the most

refined

whether it's in the practice or whether

it's in the realms in the 31 realms of

existence

then the buddha goes on to say here

ananda ebiku is practicing thus

it might not be and it might not be mine

it will not be and it will not be mine

but exists what has come to be

that i am abandoning

thus he obtains

equanimity he does not delight in that

equanimity welcome it or remain holding

to it since he does not do so his

consciousness does not become dependent

on it and does not cling to it

it be crew without clinging on the

attains ibana

so when you let go of the subtlest

formation of conceit the subtlest

formation of i am

then there is experience of cessation

and from that cessation

you start to see something because your

mind becomes so pure

your mindfulness becomes so sharp that

it's starting to starting to see

as the lengths of uh dependent

origination arias and pass away without

attachment without identification and

because of not grasping there is the

experience of ibana

now one uh important piece of advice

here is when you are in the a channel

when you are in need of perception and

non-perception it's important to reflect

back spend a couple of minutes after you

come out of your practice

with your eyes closed start to see just

let the mind intend and retrospectively

look at what happened

when that happens you might start to see

different things and all you have to do

is 6r

this makes the mind more purified and

more clarified and it sharpens the

mindfulness so that it's even sharper

when it experiences the links of

dependent

origination so ananda says

it is wonderful venerable sir it is

marvelous the blessed one indeed has

explained to us the crossing of the

flood independence upon one's support or

another in other words he's saying

you've explained us the way to get to

nibana through this gradual process of

unfolding through these different levels

of cessation dependent upon the other

dependent upon cofactors

what venerables sir what is noble

liberation

here ananda a noble disciple considers

thus

sensual pleasures here and now and

central pleasures in lives to come

sensual perceptions here and now and

sensual perceptions in lives to come

perceptions are formed here and now and

perceptions of

forms and lives to come perceptions of

the imperturbable

perceptions of the base of nothingness

and perceptions of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

this is an identity as far as identity

extends

this is the deathless namely the

liberation of the mind through not

clinging as i said

that i am formation this is the identity

as far as identity extends

when you let go of that you experience

the unconditioned

you experience a cessation of all

conditions in the form of perception

feeling and consciousness

and the mind becomes liberated through

not grasping through not clinging so

that noble liberation really is pointing

towards

towards full awakening where the mind

when it comes back online doesn't even

hold on to any of that experience of joy

and relief and seeing it as mine

it just sees that whole process

of impersonal impersonality it sees it

as being impersonal and so when that

happens there's no clinging in the form

of conceit

there's no clinging in the form of

ignorance

and so when those feathers drop and the

other feathers depended upon that drop

that is the restlessness the craving for

form the craving for the formless

and the ignorance obviously

then there is

the complete dissolution of

the the the fetters there is the

completely

uh complete destruction of craving the

complete destruction of identification

and that is the liberation of the mind

through not clinging

thus ananda i have taught the way

directed to the imperturbable

i have taught the way directed to the

base of nothingness i have taught the

way directed to the base of neither

perception or non-perception

i i have taught the crossing of the

flood independence

upon one support or the other i have

taught noble liberation

what should be done for his disciples

out of compassion by a teacher who seeks

their welfare and has compassion for

them that i have done for you

there are these roots of trees these

empty hats

meditate ananda do not delay or else you

will regret it later

this is our instruction

to you

any questions

comments remarks

[Music]

hey delson you might want to

talk about that little um experiment or

um well experiment practice that we did

with you um a few weeks ago how we sat

in a circle

it could be done um perhaps by other

people or at least for them to you know

watch their mind in that way

yeah so what we did was we uh

we sat in a little circle and we went

through

majamenikaya111 but we didn't go through

it

completely what we did was we stopped at

the first jhana

or any of the channels

and picked out the different details

so in there sariputta sees the different

factors of the jaundice he sees for

example in the first jhana he sees the

bitter and bachara he sees

the uh joy he sees the comfort of the

body he sees the

um

well what he sees really is the five

aggregates in the form of mentality

materiality he sees the contact feeling

perception intention attention he sees

mind he sees enthusiasm

he sees the decision

he sees

he sees chana and so on so all of these

different factors

what we did was we started looking at

them and so we read it uh understood it

then went into the practice

we went into the practice

and then we

saw it bit by bit so what you were doing

was

you weren't becoming the jhana

you weren't the mind experiencing the

jhana all it was is seeing how the mind

experiences

as it arises and passes away the contact

seeing the contact of mind with loving

kindness for example seeing the feeling

of loving kindness seeing the perception

of loving kindness seeing how mind

intends towards loving-kindness seeing

how attention stays on loving-kindness

seeing all of these different co-factors

when they arise

the point here is not to look for them

not to investigate in the form of

analyzing and trying to see and

anticipating and expecting them

it's just to see when they arise and

pass away but that seeing the

impermanence of that

one immediately lets go of any

attachment to the janna and goes on to

the next channel so we did this for each

of the four janas and then later on we

did it with another group and we did we

went through each of the

eight genres and um

they all had a wonderful experience i

think david can talk a little bit about

his experience when we did that

oh oh thanks just give it over to me

yeah of course

um

i thought it was really interesting

because

what you did was uh well we set a timer

and you said okay everybody just go into

the first jhana i was like oh sure yeah

i'll just

go right into the first jonah but

in fact you actually did because what

you're doing

is you said

just observe the factors that you had

laid out from the suta

in the jhana you know if there's

unification if there's joy if there's

uh you know any of these other factors

see if that's there and it's almost like

as you watch things the jhana came up by

itself because you were no you weren't

trying

to get it to happen

it was just happening on its own

and it's almost like the mind said oh

okay i'm fine i'll i'll do it for you

you know as long as you don't you know

yell at me or anything

and uh

it did come up and so then we

went around the circle and we talked

about what we saw

and

then he says well okay we're going to do

the second jonah

and um so we did the second john and we

did our 10-minute thing

and

you know one thing i you know i'll point

out to the group which i'll you know i

pointed out to delson and the others was

sometimes when you're first starting

is um

this person

sometimes when you're first

starting

with the meta the meta can kind of come

up to the head

but it's really and you think oh well i

must be the fortunate but no no it's not

you don't just go womb like that there's

a process of going through those

jaundice

and

you know first my the meta was in my

heart and then then it jumped up into my

head

i thought well that's really light and

what happened to the other ones in

between

well then i noticed it kind of went back

down

or or it was there

and but it was changed you know it

changed into a quieter and there's the

second jhana

and then the then you continued another

10 minutes the timer goes off okay and

we talk about it third jonah

and then uh

just watching the mind going on sir

john's not going to come up

well it did and

equanimity was there

quietness the body was kind of

disappeared you know all the factors

were there

and then all of a sudden it just goes

from

down here to goes

[Music]

and then it's up here in the head it was

just such a clear

um moving of the jhana

that it was really helpful to see that

whole process

and i missed the second session so i

can't tell you about the rest the next

day

but um just watching

your process watching your mind and not

necessarily pushing it along was really

helpful

so

anybody else got anything

hey delson

yes

uh this is john mott i'm sorry i have

barking dogs on mute when they uh

when they come up

excuse me um

i'm really interested in and uh one of

those powerful things about the practice

for me has been the insights um

and just sort of the way that the mind

works and

and the way that that intersects with

the world and that's

that's been the most powerful part all

of the stuff that happens that arises

and passes away phenomenon and i don't

even pay attention to that anymore it's

just this layer upon layer upon thing

where i go oh that's how the mic works

oh oh wow there's another thing i needed

to see i'm just curious um

sort of

the insights that you've gained because

you're obviously very far along and i

have a great deal of respect for that

so oh my god you don't

so you want to know the kind of things

that uh i've experienced in the john as

you're saying

that you've gained

well i think the most important insight

here is to see the impersonal nature of

the genre themselves so in other words

you know you don't take it personally

you don't even take the object of

meditation personally it the even the

object of meditation let's say when you

first start out with loving kindness

or if you have uh radiating compassion

or whatever it might be

that arises because of an intention that

arises because of different

arising of causes and conditions that

include the different factors of

mentality materiality but that's all

impersonal as well so even though it

seems like you're you or the self is

intending the loving kindness

just because uh it seems like it is it's

not really you who is doing it

so that comes about later and you start

to see and reflect and understand that

even this process of jhana as long as

you're not pushing as long as you're

allowing it to happen and unfold

naturally you start to get this deeper

insight on in the imperson

into the impersonal nature of jhana

themselves

thank you

you're welcome

delson frank denuzo can you hear me

yes hello thank you thank you for your

talk today as well

uh i have a question regarding you were

talking at one point about having mind

as the object of meditation

and

uh adjusting for

sloth and torpor or restlessness the

opposite

i seem to have uh trouble

at doing that i'm kind of behind the

like three steps behind by the time i

recognize what's going on it's kind of

too late right i've already been

overtaken by

torpor and i and sometimes i can get

back sometimes i can't i have to walk

but i would like for you to

detail a little bit more what you mean

by

take a greater interest in your object

of meditation it sounds so simple and it

seems so easy yet when i'm there and not

so much correct

uh

one example would be

did you have a favorite subject in

school

uh

i do arts the arts

of any type you know

right and when you have a favorite

subject when you do any kind of arts

when you're doing any kind of creativity

uh do you have to do you have to make

like a make an effort to do something or

does it just flow because you have

natural interest in it indeed i've heard

this talked about before it does seem to

just flow it's it's much less it takes

much less effort to do that because

you're enjoying yourself because you

like the subject because you're into the

subject much more yeah

in the same way when you have slot in

torpor or even restlessness it's

happening because of boredom

that's really the underlying factor here

the boredom eventually what happens is

because you come to this very subtle

level of mind

there's no longer any kind of sensory

input

or very little if at all but actually in

a quiet mind it's just all mentality

so because there's nothing going on the

mind isn't used to it the mind is used

to

having all kinds of sensory activity

going on i mean right now there's

millions and millions and millions of

different arising and passing away of

sensory consciousnesses because you're

listening to me you're watching the

screen your mind might be reflecting on

what's going on you're sitting in the

chair and so on and so forth so

so when you come to that quiet mind all

of that dissipates all of that is

quieted down and the mind being used to

that no longer has any stimuli no longer

has any kind of thing that's going on

so when it sees itself it starts to

become disinterested when it becomes

mind watching mind eventually just

becomes bored of that so the way to

bring up that joyful interest the way to

bring up that

interest into your objective uh

meditation in this case being the quiet

mind

is really being able to

first and foremost

when you see that the mind has gone into

slot interpreter that's a good step

because first you recognize that there

is slot interpret present that

immediately brings back your mindfulness

recognizing itself is mindfulness in

action

when you recognize it and you release it

and now you start to have an intention

of just

just tightening a little bit

lightning a little bit your focus your

your attention

on the object of meditation in this case

with the mind so it's like

let's say you know maybe for me for

example when i was in school mathematics

was my least favorite subject and i

wouldn't pay attention to it at all i

had no interest in it at all i didn't

know anything about numbers and

calculus and this and that so i never

really paid attention to it but when it

came to things like literature and

writing my mind was effortless when it

came to just

looking at it because there was a

tightening of attention but when i was

in mathematics class my attention was

all over the place because it had become

so loose

so this tightening of that when you see

when you're doing whatever creative work

you're doing you see there's a there's a

collectedness there there's a collecting

of attention

one thing at a time you're you're doing

one thing at a time but it seems like

it's flowing

so in that same quality of feeling is

that that quality of feeling when i say

tightening your focus a little bit

typing your attention

and if i understood what you just said

recognition is the first step

in that process correct so that's a good

place to start right yes okay yeah as

soon as you

yeah as soon as you recognize you're

already making the effort that effort

then brings up energy brings up a little

bit of interest already because of that

activity it dissipates the slot and

torpor and now all you have to do is

intend

collecting the mind around mind itself

again

beautiful thank you very much nelson

you're welcome

hey let me jump in here with some plugs

here for some of the work we've been

doing with delson over the last few

weeks

as you can see behind me

uh he's been being interviewed by

venerable karuna who's with us under a

different name hi liam how you doing

there he is

and uh we've got uh we did some sessions

with um we just put out 31 planes of

existence

where delson goes through all of the

planes and talks about them we put out

the first one was about his background

and talking about twim

next one was about some upcoming brain

research

that is happening in the netherlands

and uh then we talked about uh

mindfulness and what is really the

meaning of mindfulness and what is twim

and what are the jaundice

um more detail the concentration versus

you know the genres that we know of

um

kind of you know i think delson you're

starting to call them pseudogenis

actually it's kind of an interesting

good name

um and some other things so there's

going to be an about seven different

videos

that are coming out and some of them are

out and just check ponte's channel and

i'm posting everything there and it's

plus it's on our front page

so a lot of interesting stuff plus i'll

add we made a video with most frequently

answered

asked questions frequently answered

frequently asked and answered questions

and we wrote down a whole list combining

a list from our site and the sutta

foundation site and sutavada foundation

site

and anything else we could think of

and

karuna asked elsin his opinion what were

the answers to all those questions like

trying too hard and can't find the

feeling and

and many of those things and and it's

about a half hour i think it's going to

be worthwhile watching

and

sending around to people who are having

difficulty with their meditation

so look for all those videos

anything else from anybody

i have a question

yes

can you hear me

yes i can okay great um and

thanks uh

david and delson i really appreciate

this this is

very very wonderful and i think uh

in delta we have a teacher who has

combined incredible knowledge of the

sutas plus

direct experience and that's

a rare and beautiful thing so thank you

for that and sharing it

not just uh like a pacheco buddha

keeping quiet about been having the

ability to

help other people

so i have a question about um

kind of a follow-up

on frank's uh question

uh what happens with me when i

uh

go

rather deeply into my sitting

is that at some point the 6r kind of

just falls away

because not much is coming up that i'm

perceiving or feeling

and there's a very deep um

satisfaction

i wouldn't

say that there's anything personal

attached to it that i can perceive

but it is

a satisfaction in just

being i will use that word

um are there pitfalls to that or things

perhaps that i'm not seeing

so is your object at that point uh quiet

mind yes

yeah so that's fine i would say that's

totally fine as long as you

don't have any kind of

other personal thoughts related to it so

if your mind just remains

just watching the quiet mind there comes

a point where even the quiet mind kind

of disappears

it becomes very subtle

and uh the mind is just

not landing on any object at all

so that contentment also will go away

and it will become let's say

disenchantment

that this enchantment will also go away

and that will become dispassion

and eventually

you just completely let go of it all so

there's not much you need to do here all

you have to do is continue to watch how

things unfold so just keep sharpening

the mindfulness to be able to see how

contentment transitions

into a quieter and deeper level of quiet

mind to the point that it becomes so

subtle that it's almost not even there

it's almost like

and i i caution myself to use this word

it's almost like there's just pure

awareness there's nothing else

like there's nothing the mind is landing

on right but that awareness itself

should not be considered to be taken as

some kind of a

self or something like that it's just

it's so pristine there's like almost

nothing there you're like looking

through this very very polished glass

and you don't even notice that there's

any glass that you're looking through

when you get to that and that all that

requires is just soft gentle mindfulness

keep doing what you're doing and i would

i would say you need a little more time

to keep that unfolding process from

contentment to

uh disenchantment to dispassion to

cessation

as monty likes to say i'm i'm here now

in damasuka and he has he like to say in

the retreat three hours is good four

hours is better five hours is even

better so if you have the time you know

try to meditate for as long as you can

in one step

wonderful thank you

does may i ask something

yes please

i'm you he knew here and it's

i'm from the netherlands i'm new here i

was looking for the six hours i have

i have one time

one time one evening being with vimela

with bountiful ramsey but i think it is

12 or 13 years

ago

and i did not follow up with this

but um in the meta meditation i did it

in the in another babies with all the

different persons one after the other

but now i have a difficulty because i

was looking

i was look

i i look for the combination from the

new self

and the

the

the sentences

with may i be this may i be that may you

be that we do

so

how to combine i thought it's not

possible to do it in this way or you

have to know that there's not

what you are saying

that you do not mean what you are seeing

um can you

help me with it

yeah

so one thing you have to understand is

when you do this process of may i be

happy may i be well or you tell somebody

else may you be happy and so on these

are all verbalizations that happen in

specifically the first jhana

when you let that go so there comes a

point where you drop all of that and all

you do is just experience the feeling

itself

so this meditation is not just

verbalizing which can help initially in

order to bring up the feeling

as i as far as i understand it in other

kinds of loving kindness practices

they use in some ways the phrases almost

like a mantra but there's not a lot of

feeling going on there might be but

there's not a lot of attention there

so my recommendation is when you start

to feel loving kindness the warmth of

loving kindness

when you verbalize let go of the

verbalization and put your attention and

rest your awareness on the experience of

the feeling itself

and then just watch how that feeling

develops watch how that feeling grows or

changes or whatever it might be this

process of watching how that feeling

changes

is actually a process of

seeing and perceiving impermanence when

you see that then that naturally leads

to the perception of anata as you said

yes

and when it when it becomes so very

quiet

um as the speaker before was telling

is

and you

cannot do it do it anything or

it

doesn't have to

to be it doesn't have to be done

something that it's just quiet just

staying and it is quiet

can you see that as a radiation

no let me tell you different

because you were speaking about relation

relationship matter in the relations

this evening and i felt very touched by

it i thought this is the thing that i am

how to

radiate

but there is no one to radiate

yeah so

so you know one of

one of the experiences uh i just want to

know i mean i know you said you're new

to twins so i think i'll give you a

little bit of understanding of how the

steps are first you

yeah first you radiate to a spiritual

friend and then afterwards then you

radiate your different

people the categories of people and then

when it comes to actually radiating

to

uh in all directions you're taking all

beings

in that sense

not just your family members not just

your friends

not just the difficult people not just

the casual acquaintances but all beings

all animals and so on and so forth

there was an experience of uh somebody

who

was experiencing infinite space

and they're experiencing compassion it

was in one of the sessions that we were

doing where we were going through each

of the jhanas and as he was doing it one

of the things i indicated is when you

radiate compassion

there can be a time where you actually

start to connect with a specific

individual or groups of individual in

the meditation and sometimes you see

that that person is suffering

and sometimes you have an intention to

follow them up or send them an email or

message them and invariably you'll see

that yes indeed they were suffering and

they were looking up for somebody to

help them and things like that so

somebody went through this process doing

that

and they actually saw that somebody in

their life was suffering

and and they understood that uh you know

that person needed support uh needed uh

words of guidance and and help and so on

and uh

you know that was their decision to

whether they wanted to act upon it or

not but that can happen when you radiate

loving kindness and when you radiate

compassion you can actually start to

connect with certain people and it just

gives you a reminder to stay in touch

with them and see how they're doing and

so on

so in reality

then

you take make contact with the person

yes

it's a step further

thank you very much

you're welcome

nelson um since we're talking about the