From: https://youtube.com/watch?v=kAmivhH7XZs

Context: Throughout this transcript, Bhante Vimalaramsi is the speaker unless otherwise indicated.

[Music]

so

[Music]

okay so today we're gonna go over

voidness

or emptiness

and the sign list

before i continue

i have

three suitors i'm going through but

they're all

going to be short

okay

so don't worry

so the first one is majjima nikaya one

two one

chula sunyata suta

the shorter discourse on

voidness

thus have i heard on one occasion the

blessed one was living at savathi in the

eastern park in the palace of nagara's

mother

then when it was evening the venerable

ananda rose from the meditation

went to the blessed one and after paying

homage to him

he sat down at one side and said to the

blessed one

venerable sir on one occasion the

blessed one was living in the sakyan

country

where there is a town of the sakyan's

name nagaraka

there venerable sir i heard and learned

this from the blessed one's own lips

now ananda i often abide in voidness

did i hear that correctly venerable sir

did i learn that correctly

attend to that correctly

remember that correctly

certainly ananda you heard that

correctly

learned that correctly

attended to that correctly

remember that correctly as formerly

ananda so now too

i often abide in voidness

if you recall a couple of days ago we

were talking about the seven types of

people

right

one liberated by wisdom one liberated

both ways and so on and so forth

well there's one more person

the eighth

type of person

and this is known as the anime davihari

there is a suta in i think the angry

nikaya

where the

there is a brahma or a deva named

thisa

who comes down and he talks about these

seven different types of people

and the monk who's listening to him

listens eagerly and then he goes to the

buddha and tells them this is what i was

told

and then the buddha says but did he not

tell you about the eighth type of person

and that is known as the animita vihari

vihari means one who resides one who

abides

and animata is the signless the signless

collectedness of mind

so as we go through the suta we'll

explore what that means

ananda just as this palace of megara's

mother is void of elephants cattle

horses and mares

void of gold and silver

void of the assembly of men and women

and there is present only this

non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

sangha of bhikkhus

so too a beku not attending to the

perception of village

not attending to the perception of

people

attends the singleness dependent on the

perception

of forest

so there's different ways of

understanding voidness voidness is a

synonym for emptiness

you hear about emptiness in different

schools of buddhism and

usually it's understood as empty of self

so emptiness here is equated with anata

but here the buddha is talking about

emptiness in terms of what is void

of a state so here he's saying just as

this place is void of the elephants and

horses and

and so on and so forth so too

a mind can be void of different kinds of

elements

so we'll

we'll explore what that means

his mind enters into that perception of

force and acquires confidence steadiness

and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbance is there might be

dependent on the perception of village

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of people

those are not here

there is only this amount of disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of forest

so when a monk enters the forest it is

void of villages and cities and towns

it is empty of these things it is empty

of people

but there is only this the perception of

the forest

he understands

he understands this field of perception

is void of the perception of village

this field of perception is void of the

perception of people

there is only present this non-voidness

which means that which is there

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of forest thus he regards it

as void of what is not there but as to

what remains there he understands that

which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this is his

genuine undistorted pure descent

into voidness

again ananda

ibiku not attending to the perception of

people

not attending to the perception of

forest

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of earth

his mind enters into that perception of

earth

and acquires confidence steadiness and

resolution

just as a bull's hide becomes free from

folds

when fully stretched with a hundred pegs

so too a beku not attending to any of

the ridges and hollows of this earth

to the rivers and ravines

the tracts of stumps and thorns

the mountains and uneven places

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of earth

so in other words

now he is only perceiving earth perhaps

just the earth element

and so that is void of all of the

different details of the earth element

there is just earth

he understands whatever disturbances

there might be dependent on the

perception of people

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of forest

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of earth

he understands this field of perception

is void of the perception of people

this field of perception is void of the

perception of forest

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of earth

thus he regards it as void

of what is not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted pure descent

into voidness

now

here it's going to talk about infinite

space

so sometimes the interpretation is he

sees the earth element

and then he takes that as a casino

now remember

a few days ago we talked about kasina

coming from the word kritsna

usually it's understood that kasina

means that one becomes one pointed on

that particular disc of the earth

element

but kritsna actually means whole or

expanded

which means he's actually expanding that

perception of earth and now he's going

to experience that expansion in the form

of infinite space

again ananda a beku

not attending to the perception of

forest

not attending to the perception of earth

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception

of the base of infinite space

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of infinite space

and acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of forest

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of earth

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite space

he understands

this field of perception is void of the

perception of forest

this field of perception is void of the

perception of earth

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite space

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

so what is not there is the perception

of force the perception of earth

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present and what is present

the perception of infinite space

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted pure descent into voidness

again

not attending to the base

sorry not attending to the perception of

earth

not attending to the perception of the

base of infinite space

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of infinite consciousness and

acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus whatever

disturbances there might be dependent

on the perception of earth those are not

present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of infinite space

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

he understands this field of perception

is void of the perception of earth this

field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of infinite space

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted pure descent into voidness

so we understand that the base of

infinite consciousness when you perceive

that

it is empty of the perception of the

base of infinite space

what about the first four janus

what's the first jhana empty of what is

it void of

hindrances

what about the second journal

thinking and examining thought

what about the third channel

joy

what about the fourth

happiness

again ananda ibiku not attending to the

perception of the base of infinite space

not attending to the perception of the

base of infinite consciousness

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of the base of

nothingness

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of nothingness and acquires

confidence steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of infinite space

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the base of the sorry on

the perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance namely

the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of

nothingness he understands this field of

perception is void

of the perception of the base of

infinite space

this field of perception is void

of the perception of the base of

infinite consciousness

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of nothingness

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda

this too is his genuine undistorted pure

descent into voidness

again ananda

ebiku

not attending to the perception of the

base of infinite consciousness

not attending to the perception of the

base of nothingness

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

try saying that five times

perception of the base of neither

perception or non-perception

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of neither perception or

non-perception and acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbance is there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of infinite consciousness

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of nothingness

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

he understands

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of nothingness

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda

this too is his genuine undistorted pure

descent into voidness

again ananda a beku

not attending to the perception of the

base of nothingness

not attending to the perception of the

base of neither perception nor

non-perception

attends to the singleness dependent on

the signless collectedness of mind

his mind enters into that signless

collectedness of mind and acquires

confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of nothingness

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of neither perception nor non-perception

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely

that connected with the six spaces that

are dependent on this body and

conditioned by life

he understands

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of nothingness

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

there is present only this non-voidness

namely that connected with the six bases

that are dependent on this body and

condition by life

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there but as to what remains there

he understands that which is present

thus

this is present

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted

pure descent into voidness

so here the buddha is talking about the

signless collectedness of mind

some of you have experienced this at

some point or another in your meditation

the signless is

much

much subtler than the quiet mind

there comes a point where you are with

quiet mind and there's no vibration

going on at all

but there's this sense of

collectedness around the mind

the mind itself is an object

when we talk about the signless

collectedness of mind

really that comes from the word anamitta

samadhi

anamitta so nimita

which is a sign or an object

and ah which is the non so an objectless

meditation so to speak

what that means is

there comes a point where even the quiet

mind

just fades away and there's just like

blank screen that's there

you're not looking at anything in

particular the mind is just aware

looking past things looking through

things

little things might come up

but as soon as you see them they fade

away and the mind is just completely

purely empty

void of any object

and this is the signless collectedness

of mind

this

mind is so purified

that there are no vibrations happening

the subtlest vibration that happens here

is no is the

is the formation rooted in conceit

the sense of i am the sense of me the

sense of myself

from there there can arise craving there

can arise restlessness they can rise of

they can arise aversion and so on and so

forth

so as soon as you see something you're

no longer in that in the same way as

long as you as soon as you perceive

then you're no longer neither perception

nor non-perception as soon as the mind

takes something as an object

it's no longer in this sign-less

the analogy that i use is it's like you

take a flashlight you switch it on and

you point it to the sky

and when you point to the sky it the

light just goes out into space

but it's not landing on anything

as soon as it lands on something there

is an object there

but because it doesn't land on anything

it is just signless objectless

just pure

observing

not observing anything in particular

just looking

and because eventually

the batteries run out the fuel for that

flashlight runs out

that is to say because there is no more

formations arising because they have

been

relaxed and let go of

and no fuel of attention is being given

to any object in particular

what are their formations or the sense

of i am

or whatever it might be

the battery runs out and the mind's

attention stops

and then one is in cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

so this is a very subtle state

it's not like you have to go there but

this is a state that is accessible

once you get more and more developed in

the practice

once you have certain kinds of

understanding of each of the jhanas

once you have understanding of the quiet

mind and then see the quiet mind itself

as very coarse and let that go now that

happens on its own when the mind becomes

very relaxed and it softens the edges of

the mind softens the edges of

one's attention and awareness and then

that just basically fades away

and there is that pure screen that's

there some people see it as just this

blank screen sometimes it has orange hue

sometimes it has a green hue sometimes

it looks like static

it's just this screen

and nothing in particular

again ananda ibiku not attending to the

perception of the base of nothingness

not attending to the perception of the

base of neither perception nor

non-perception

attends to the singleness dependent on

the signless collectiveness of mind

his mind enters into that signless

collectedness and acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

his he understands thus

this signless collectedness of mind

is conditioned

and volitionally produced

but whatever is conditioned and

volitionally produced is impermanent

subject to cessation

so even this signless collectedness of

mind

is conditioned

it's not the unconditioned

why is it conditioned because there is

still a sense of observer there

there's a sense of there is still an

awareness there which is conditioned

by contact with the mind

the mind and the sinless state

so it's volitionally produced what does

that mean there is an intention to relax

further and further and further

volitionally produced conditioned by

that intention

but once the mind realizes that even

this

is conditioned and therefore impermanent

subject to cessation the mind loses

complete

interest in even the signless state this

is where disenchantment and dispassion

come into

the purview

here the mind becomes so disenchanted so

dispassionate that it doesn't it's not

interested in any formations at all

not interested in any object at all not

even interested in the awareness of the

signless state of mind

and then

there is cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness

when this happens

when he knows and sees thus

his mind is liberated from the taint of

sensual desire

from the taint of being

and from the taint of ignorance

this happens when the mind makes contact

with the nibana element and there is no

grasping on to the joy and relief that's

felt as a result of

contact with the demand element

therefore no more

taint of sensual desire no more taint of

the craving for existence or of becoming

and no more the taint of ignorance

he understands

when it is liberated there comes the

knowledge it is labor it is liberated he

understands birth is destroyed

the holy life has been lived what had to

be done has been done

there is no more coming to any state of

being

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the taint of sensual desire

those are not present here

what disturbances are there dependent

upon the taint of sensual desire

craving

the link of craving

sensual clinging and so on

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the taint of becoming

those are not present here

what disturbances might those be

clinging to existence craving for

existence

bhava

habitual tendencies

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the taint of ignorance

those are not present here

but

yes

tainted formations formations

conditioned by ignorance

ignorance is gone now

there's complete attention and

understanding

of the four noble truths

ignorance is destroyed and what are

disturbances dependent upon that that is

formations rooted in that ignorance

and then further on the lack of

mindfulness when you experience a

feeling all of those disturbances all of

those that are dependent upon

ignorance goes away

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely that connected with the six bases

that are dependent on this body and

conditioned by life

he understands thus

this field of perception is void

of the taint of sensual desire now what

he's talking about is that liberated

mind

whatever it's perceiving all the time it

knows that it is empty

of the taint of sensual desire

this field of perception is void of the

taint of becoming it's empty of the

taint of craving for existence

this field of perception is void of the

taint of ignorance it's empty of

ignorance

there is present only this non-voidness

namely that connected with the six and

spaces that are dependent on this body

and conditioned by life

in essence what is remaining is just the

five aggregates

no longer clung to no longer conditioned

by craving

thus he regards the regards it as void

of what is not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this is his genuine

undistorted pure descent into voidness

supreme and unsurpassed

that's the mind of a liberated being

the mind of an arahat

supreme and unsurpassed

completely empty of all disturbances

of sensual craving

of the desire to become

and of ignorance

whatever recluses and brahmanas

that is to say arahats

in the past entered upon and abided in

pure

supreme unsurpassed voidness

all entered upon and abided in the same

pure supreme unsurpassed voidness

whatever recluses and brahmanas in the

future will enter upon an abiding pure

supreme unsurpassed voidness

all will enter upon and abide in this

same pure supreme unsurpassed voidness

whatever recluses

and brahmanas in the present

enter upon and abide in pure

supreme unsurpassed voidness

all enter upon and abide in this

same

pure supreme unsurpassed voidness

therefore ananda you should train thus

we will enter upon and abide in pure

supreme unsurpassed whiteness

thus you should train yourselves we will

enter into the liberated mind

that is what the blessed one said

the venerable anando was satisfied and

delighted in the blessed one's words

so that's the first sudan

yes

what is this

every step of the way

as opposed to unpure but we'll have a

kind of a

pure in the sense that it's not

um

it's not affected by disturbances

it's just downshift from infinite space

to infinite consciousness

it's just gradual

natural

progression

at each step there was always whatever

disturbance there might be under

previous

concepts these are not here

so just to take infinite consciousness

as an example

so when a person's at an infinite

consciousness whatever disturbances

there might be based on infinite space

here what disturbances would there be

from infinite space the perception of

infinite space

so the perception of the concept of that

the experience of infinite space is not

there in the experience of infinite

consciousness

the experience of infinite consciousness

is not present in the experience of

nothingness

okay so it's not being present it's a

disturbance to the

new stage

basically when you go from infinite

space to infinite consciousness

you're no longer an infinite space

so you're just an infinite consciousness

when you go from infinite consciousness

to nothingness you're just in

nothingness there's no preceding states

of infinite consciousness in nothingness

when you're perceiving

the base of nothingness

so the

so what is the suits are really doing

here

it's starting off with

fourth john

starting out with fort china yeah

right

so he's kind of going backwards through

the whole thing and just letting go so

that's

you know where's before he says well

start first second third yeah

yeah in a sense

so this is just showing you

there's levels of cessation right

so the genres also are levels of

cessation so we yeah so that's what you

can talk about

yeah

so i talked i asked you guys what is uh

what is empty or what is the first genre

empty of

it's the same way of asking what ceases

in the first jhana the hindrances

and in the second jana what ceases is

the vitika vichara and in the third

jhana what ceases is the joy and so on

and so forth so what you're seeing is

these downshifts of the mind so

the the coarser levels of

experience

through the different factors of the

ambience of each of the genres starts to

diminish and cease

yeah it's taking you to the fourth

channel and then

you expand that

and then when you expand that you're now

getting into the experience of

infinite space

there's consciousness so there's feeling

and perceptions

but you're perceiving still you're

perceiving that you're

seeing

you know

it's not nothingness because nothingness

is a perception of that there is nothing

here

but that itself is an object

here the silence is like

the it's like

everything becomes translucent all

objects become translucent it's like

you're seeing through them

rather than looking at them

landing on them

of course

yeah

there's not a rupee even when you're a

cessation of perception feeling in

consciousness if there wasn't

i mean

when we talk about mind and body they

are still present

it says there in the signless state

there is still the sixth sense basis

dependent upon and conditioned by this

life

so the sixth sense bases if they are

still there they're dependent upon

namarupa and so on

it's just that in cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

now that's what we're going to go

through in a bit but cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness the

faculties are said to be clear

the reason is right now when you're

listening to my voice when you're seeing

me when you're experiencing through the

sixth sense basis those are data packets

being received by the sixth sense basis

those are impediments in a sense

but when there's cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness there's

absolutely no activity in the sense

basis

which means

the faculties are clear of the

impediments of these

sensory data packets

so there is a all of the objects the

signs and all of these things

and then for a moment there's no objects

but

perception and consciousness are still

working right

right and then since there's since there

is nothing

yeah there's nothing for it to fuel

to continue it just ceases yeah

so in other words at this point there's

still mental formations

right but verbal formations and bodily

formations have ceased and will

understand as we go through

any other questions

i had a question just about the language

no singleness here is the unification of

mind or it's another way of

understanding the collectedness of mind

there is the collectiveness of mind

the mind is collected around this

perception

okay

yeah non-voidness means that which is

still there okay

i know it's a very interesting way that

they've talked there is this voidness

like the

you know chicken fried chicken there is

this

no so so voidness means empty of

something right so like for example

infinite space or infinite consciousness

is empty of the perception of

infinite space

but there is that which is still present

that's the non-voidness or the

non-emptiness or that which is filled

with

and what is filled the mind is filled

with the perception of infinite

consciousness

right

is that clear

non-void means there's still something

there that's right exactly

i mean if it isn't raining

it's void

right

but there is that non-voidness

namely the sun

you know

[Laughter]

yeah so in the cessation

am i understanding it that then the cars

aren't there or they're suspended

they're suspended they're ceased

okay so the next one the next two are

very short

but they're very interesting and very

deep and subtle so

listen and attend closely

yeah

this is the samytha nikaya 41.7

the godata

now this is actually an extract if you

guys are familiar with

majimenakair43

where sariputta is having that

conversation with maha kotita about the

different aspects of feeling and then

the signless liberation of mind and all

of that this is the same as that

particular section but i'm only going to

talk about this section which is the

extraction from there

oh the page numbers

1325.

on one occasion the venerable godatta

was

dwelling at machi kasunda

in the wild mango grove

then chitta the householder approached

the venerable godatta paid homage to him

and sat down to one side now chitta the

householder he was known to be in

anagami

and he was somebody who knew how to

enter the cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness

he was also somebody who taught the

monks because he was very adept in

meditation so sometimes the buddha would

send him send them to him to talk about

the finer points of how to get into

cessation and so on

the venerable godatta then said to him

as he was sitting to one side

householder the measureless liberation

of mind the liberation of mind by

nothingness

the liberation of mind by emptiness

and the signless liberation of mind

are these things different in meaning

and also different in phrasing

or are they one in meaning and different

only in phrasing

there is a method venerable sir by which

these things are different in meaning

and also different in phrasing

and there is a method by which they are

one in meaning and different only in

phrasing

and what venerable sir

is the method by which these things are

different in meaning and also different

in phrasing

here ibiku dwells pervading one quarter

with the mind imbued with

loving-kindness

likewise the second quarter the third

quarter and the fourth quarter thus

above below across and everywhere and to

all as to himself

he dwells pervading the entire world

with the mind imbued with loving

kindness

exalted vast measureless without

hostility without ill will

does that sound familiar

he dwells pervading one quarter with the

mind imbued with compassion and so on

with the mind imbued with altruistic joy

with the mind imbued with equanimity

likewise the second quarter the third

quarter and the fourth quarter thus

above below across and everywhere and to

all as to himself

he dwells pervading the entire world

with a mind imbued with equanimity or

altruistic joy or compassion

vast exalted measureless without

hostility without ill will

this is called the measureless

liberation of mind

now there's a way in which they use the

word liberation

that means the

liberation of mind which is liberated by

the taints and the liberation of the

mind where the hindrances are no longer

present which is in china

so right now what they're talking about

in terms of the measure measureless

liberation of mind

is that mind which is imbued with loving

kindness or any of the brahma viharas

and radiates it outward

and what venerable sir is the liberation

of mind by nothingness

here by completely transcending the base

of the infinity of consciousness

aware that there is nothing a beak who

enters and dwells in the base of

nothingness

this is called the liberation of mind by

nothingness

pretty straightforward

and what venerable sir is a liberation

of mind by emptiness

here a biku gone to the forest or to the

foot of a tree or to an empty hut

reflects thus

empty is this of self

or of what belongs to self

this is called the liberation of mind by

emptiness

now

if i remember correctly bonte talked

about a practice that he did

where he would actually look back and

see where did this thought arise right

whose thought is this

and he started to see the emptiness of

self of these thoughts

emptiness of self of this body and so on

and so in that process one enters the

emptiness liberation of mind

liberation in the sense that it is void

of any of the hindrances one is just

experiencing

anata there

and what venerable sir is the signless

liberation of mind

here with non-attention to all signs

when we say signs that say object

non-attention to all objects

a bike who enters and dwells into

the signless collectedness of mind this

is called the signless liberation of

mind

this venerable sir is the method by

which these things

are different in meaning and also

different in phrasing

and what venerable sir is the method by

which these things are one in meaning

and different only in phrasing

so now we're talking about the

measureless liberation of mind the

liberation of mind by nothingness

the emptiness liberation of mind and the

signless liberation of mind they're

different words different adjectives

that mean the same thing now as follows

all right

lust venerable sir

is a maker of measurement

hatred is a maker of measurement

delusion is a maker of measurement in

other words when there is greed present

when there is hatred present when there

is delusion present there is a comparing

going on a measuring going on and that

is conceit mana

another word from mana is to measure

that is to compare

i am greater than this or he is better

than me

and so on so forth

for one whose taints are destroyed

these have been abandoned cut off at the

root

made like palm stumps obliterated so

that they are no more subject to future

arising

to whatever extent they there are

measureless measureless

liberations of mind the unshakable

liberation of mind is declared the chief

among them

now that unshakable liberation of mind

is empty of lust empty of hatred

empty of delusion

so this is referring to a liberated mind

a mind liberated from the taints

lost venerable sir is a something hatred

is a something

delusion is a something

so when we say that what we're saying is

lust

is a

concept

greed is a concept delusion is a concept

it's creates something in the mind it

creates a sense of this is me this is

mine this is myself

for one whose taints are destroyed

these have been abandoned cut off at the

root

made like palm stumps

obliterated so that they are no more

subject to future arising

to whatever extent there are liberations

of mind by nothingness the unshakable

liberation of mind is declared the chief

among them

that unshakeable liberation of mind is

empty of lust

empty of hatred

empty of delusion

lust venerable sir is a maker of science

hatred is a maker of science delusion is

a maker of science

so objects

objects of repulsion objects of

attraction objects of identification

when there's greed hatred or delusion

there is a sense of this is mine

this is me this is myself

and so i don't like this

there's a sense of there is that that i

don't like there's a sense of there is

that which i like there is sense of i am

that

and so when there is greed there is a

craving for something

when there is hatred there is an

aversion for something when there is

delusion there is a

identification with something and that's

something being an object of one's

desire one's aversion or one's

identification

for one whose taints are destroyed

these have been abandoned

cut off at the root

made like palm stumps obliterated so

that they are no longer subject

to future arising

to whatever extent there are sign less

liberations of mind so there is a

signless collectedness of mind where

there is no object but there is still

the sense of conceit that might arise

until there isn't

the unshakable liberation of mind that

which is free of the taints is declare

the chief among them

now that unshakeable liberation of mind

is empty of lust

empty of hatred

empty of delusion

this venerable ser is the method by

which these things are one in meaning

and different only in phrasing

it is again for you householder it is

well gained by you householder in that

you have the eye of wisdom that ranges

over the deep word of the buddha

that sounds like

yeah

is it 44 or 43

44

oh

well

yeah

well the next truth that we're going to

do is actually

sounds like it's an it's an extract

either from 43 or 44 as well

you'll see what i mean

any questions before we continue

right

yeah

that's the only way you can compare that

oh yeah he's taller than i am

you know

yeah so

they're the same in meaning of different

phrasing to the same meaning insofar as

they're referring

they're all destroyed

no they're all referring to

the mind of a liberated

they're different than meaning because

you have okay so you have for example

the measureless liberation of mind here

liberation is a temporary liberation

because it's liberated from hindrances

when you're radiating love and kindness

compassion joy or equanimity there's no

hindrances there so in that sense it's

liberated

when you are in

nothingness there's no hindrances there

in that sense you're liberated

when you see anatha

the emptiness of self in all things

conditioned

and unconditioned too then there is

that emptiness liberation of mind

because there's no hindrances there when

you're in the signless state

there's no hindrances there in that

sense you're liberated from them

so that's how they are different in

meaning and different in phrasing

but when they're one in meaning they're

all pointing to that liberation of mind

which is liberated from the taints

liberation

but when they're the same meanings and

phrasing you're pointing to the

liberation of mine from all things

different in name is referring to

or different in meaning

and different in phrasing is referring

to the different kinds of liberation

different types of liberation different

categories of liberation

there is the category of the measureless

liberation when you are in infinite

space you're sending out loving kindness

compassion joy i mean in any of the

formless attainments

when it says that he transcends

the base of infinite consciousness he is

liberated by nothingness meaning now

he's in nothingness

that's the liberation of mind

it's a category of a liberation of mind

and then when he sees the anata

the not-self of every experience

that is a category of liberation of mind

and when he's in signless

collectedness of mind he's in a category

of liberation

but when we talk about the ultimate

liberation

there's different ways you could call

that

ultimate liberation by different ways

because of the fact that they are free

of the taints because the taints

create the sense of comparison create

the sense of something there create the

sense of an object

and so in that sense

they have different names for it

depending upon how you see it but

they're all referring to the same thing

in the second

section

the first part

they're

pointing to a liberated mind but in the

context of

liberation from instances right

temporary liberation

right meditative states

right and the second part

that's the mind that's just completely

free

it's 43 no

yes

oh the dhamma eye right the i always oh

no it's the

is it the eye of dhamma or the

uh

like the eyes like the

is it

oh there's the eye that that's there's

the divine eye

there's the eye of the dharma there's

the

this eye

and then what else

the eye of panya the eye of insight and

so on

but the eye of dhamma would be one that

sees dependent origination one who

unders that which understands dependent

origination

yeah let's read that again it says here

it is again for your householder it is

well gained by you householder in that

you have the eye of wisdom that ranges

over the deep word of the buddha

so here it's

the eye of wisdom or i say i would say

the eye of insight the ability to

penetrate the dharma

and be able to explain it in a certain

way

not necessarily right in a sense he has

the analytical knowledges yeah

but before

no see

before

arises it said that the eye of wisdom

right

yes

yeah

or you could say the eye of wisdom

awakens the dhamma chakra the eye of

dhamma yeah

this is i think panyaca which is the eye

of insight

yeah okay

yes it's awakened because one sees

one sees dependent origination at that

point

yes

keep looking

you're not ignoring them

you're not ignoring them you're aware

that they're there but as soon as your

eyes go your eye of attention goes there

it's like now you're looking at

something

you're looking at a sign

but if you're just

seeing through it as being translucent

then the attention doesn't get

fueled by that particular formation

right allow them to just

and then they will go because there's no

attention given to them it's like in the

very seeing of it it's going to start to

fuel further formations

but the mind automatically just lets go

of them at this point it's just relaxing

them

but as soon as you engage with them now

the attention tightens around it and now

you're no longer in the silence because

you're taking it as an object

so

so is it like i'm looking in your

direction

and i mean i could see a little bit of

crew

chairs or something like that but

i would just keep looking in this

direction

i mean they're there because they're

there but the second i

actually turned to him now he's like a

full-blown

object so it's the coon-less

collectedness of mine

[Laughter]

did i get it right

that you said lust hate and delusion

are concepts

or they create concepts

[Laughter]

it's all it's all it's an all

all matrix

it's the matrix

that's all it is

it's the coding

there you go that's all you got to do

everybody has to just change the name to

neo and now you are the one

okay

moving on

this is sami nikaya 41.6

page

1322.

this is known as the kamabu suta

on one occasion the venerable kamabu was

dwelling at machi kasanda in the wild

mango grove

then chitta the householder approached

the venerable kamabu paid homage to him

sat down to one side and said to him

vulnerable sir how many kinds of

formations are there

now chitta already knows all of this but

he's just having a dialogue with kamabu

there are householder three kinds of

formations the bodily formation

the verbal formation and the mental

formation

good venerable sir chitta the

householder

said so he's acknowledging him okay you

know your stuff good

then having delighted and rejoiced in

the venerable kamaboos statement

he asked him a further question

but venerable sir what is the bodily

formation what is the verbal formation

what is the mental formation

in breathing and out breathing

householder are the bodily formation

so inhalation and exhalation are one

component of the bodily formation there

are other aspects of the bodily

formations when you tighten your arm

what is what are you doing

bodily formations allow you to tighten

your fist bodily formations allow you to

walk they allow you to breathe they

allow you to do other kinds of functions

within the body

but for whatever reason it's only

mentioning inhalation and exhalation and

we'll talk about that a little further

thought and examination are the verbal

formation

so the initial application of thought

or when you are listening to someone and

you start to engage with them

and

speak before you speak there is a

process in your mind

which starts to formulate what you're

going to say and how you're going to

express it

the verbal formations allow that process

to happen

or facilitate that process

perception and feeling are the mental

formations so the way you perceive

things the way you actually experience

everything is dependent upon mental

formations

good venerable sir chitta the

householder said then he asked him a

further question

but venerable sir why are in breathing

and out breathing the bodily formation

why are thought and examination the

verbal formation

why our perception and feeling of mental

formation

householder in breathing and out

breathing are bodily these things are

dependent upon the body

that is why in breathing and out

breathing are the bodily formation

first one thinks and examines

then afterwards one breaks into speech

so what you're calculating what you're

going to say

that is why thought and examination are

the verbal formation

perception and feeling are mental

these things are dependent upon the mind

that is why perception and feeling are

the mental formation

even if you're seeing through the five

physical senses

you're i mean experiencing through the

five physical senses whatever you're

seeing

it's an image created in the mind

whatever you're hearing is an

interpretation of

uh vibrations in the air picked up by

the ear and then interpreted by the mind

whatever you're tasting smelling feeling

with your body all of that is being

interpreted by the mind and therefore

these are all mental

ultimately they are mental that's why in

infinite consciousness even though your

eyes are not active

even though your ears are not active and

you still hear flickers that's happening

on a mental level

because everything

mind is chief mind is the forerunner

this is what it is

everything you're experiencing

ultimately

is interpreted or experienced by the

mind

and this is why they're called mental

formation

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question venerable sir how

does the attainment of the cessation of

perception and feeling and consciousness

come about

householder

when a beku is attaining the cessation

of perception feeling and consciousness

it does not occur to him i will attain

the cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness or i am attaining the

perception the cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness

or i have attained the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness but

rather

his mind has previously been developed

in such a way

that it leads him to such a state

what is that process of development of

mind

six hours going through janus yes

so in other words you cannot intend to

go into cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness until you become a

nanagami or an arab but that's a

different case altogether

but in terms of the attainment there's

one is the attainment and one is the

determination of going into it when

we're talking about the attainment of

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

what we're talking about is how does the

mind experience it how does the mind

go into cessation

right it happens not because you

intended instead

you are letting go

through the six-hour process

letting go of coarser formations that

arise in the form of hindrances

hindrances are nothing but just

collected formations the formation

starts off as a little snowflake and it

drops on the ground and picks up and

turns into a snowball and then

ultimately becomes into this giant

snowball which is the hindrance

so you're letting go of those

and as you get into quiet mind now

you're dealing with little snowflakes

you're melting them away with the six

r's right letting them go

and so you're ceasing certain formations

bodily formation verbal formations

bodily formations and mental formations

and this is how the process of cessation

happens

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

venerable sir

when ebiku is attaining the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

which of these things cease first

ceases first in him the bodily formation

the verbal formation or the mental

formation

what do you guys think

buddy

householder when abiku is attaining the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

first the verbal formation ceases

then the bodily formation ceases then

the mental formations why

right first in jhana the first jhana

there's no speaking going on when you

sit down for meditation no speaking

going on

you have the intention to bring up

loving kindness that's the thinking and

examining thought

but then in the second genre that ceases

now you have self-confidence and

meditation is flowing

so now the verbal formations cease there

yes you can perceive that there is this

here there is that here there is this

here but that's not verbal even though

it might sound like it's verbal it's

perceiving its perception dependent upon

mental formations

now the bodily formation cease when you

get into the fourth channel

because now you're starting to lose

contact with the body and now it's all

going into a mental state now for

whatever reason people have said over

the ages

that

in the fourth jhana breathing ceases

then all dead people are in the fourth

jhana

but what's going on here is that the

mind becomes so calm so collected

that the body becomes so relaxed

that the breathing becomes almost

imperceptible

right

so it's not just the in breathing and

out breathing it's the all bodily

formations related to

the feeling in the body

you might still feel contact when it

comes to a fly landing on your skin and

stuff but otherwise you're not paying

attention to that at all and if you're

not paying attention to that at all

no bodily formations are arising

what about mental formations

when do they cease

in cessation

because mental formations

give rise to feeling and perception when

there is a cessation of feeling

perception and consciousness

that's the cessation of mental

formations

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

venerable sir what is the difference

between one who is dead and gone

and a beaker who has attained the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

householder in the case of one who is

dead and gone

the bodily formation has ceased and

subsided

ceased

and

never to return again

the verbal formation has ceased and

subsided

the mental formation has ceased and

subsided

his vitality is extinguished

his physical heat has been dissipated

and his faculties are fully broken up

his vitality this is the ayu sankharas

vitality that which provides

the life in the body the energy in the

body

is physical heat the heat is dependent

upon the vitality and the vitality is

dependent upon the heat

right

so when there is heat in the body there

is life

and the heat arises dependent upon the

life in the body

so i put that gives an interesting

uh

analogy for this an interesting image he

talks about the flame

right the heat of the flame is there and

there is the vibrance of the flame the

radiance of the flame

that is dependent upon the heat

and so on

so

that heat

is basically the metabolism of the body

that continues

that's still there in cessation as we'll

see vitality is still there faculties

are still there but here the faculties

are broken up

meaning now it this is what is talked

about when we talk about the process of

death right in death

first the heat goes the fire element

goes the fire element dissipates

then the air or rather the uh air

element goes then the fire element goes

then the water element goes and then

finally the earth element diminishes

and in that process the other faculties

the sense faculties are broken up

so first the

smell goes

then

the taste goes

then the sight goes then the sense of

touch goes

then the hearing goes and then finally

the mind faculty goes it breaks up at

the breaking up of the body

that's what happens when a person dies

when they are dead

in the case of a beku who has attained

the cessation of perception and feeling

the bodily formation has ceased and

subsided it stopped

the verbal formation has ceased and

subsided the mental formation has ceased

and subsided but his vitality is not

extinguished his physical heat has not

been dissipated and his faculties are

serene or clear

so in other words like i was saying

earlier

when you are in cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness there is still

this

uh vitality there is still this energy

there is still the sixth sense bases

that are dependent upon the vitality

they are serene and clear because

there's no impediments

of sensory data packets going on

now when you are in cessation somebody

might think you're dead

that has happened to me

when i was in the cave and i was in

cessation

my caretaker and my friends saw me in

the cave they tried to take me they

tried to shake me up

right they thought something had

happened

and said they took me back to

his house

and then later on i think they contacted

david and david said don't worry

everything is fine

you know

just wait for another three days like

i'm jesus christ or something

but then yeah

sure enough i came out but then the

problem was at least

when i came back i was expecting myself

to be in the cave

but i saw all of these lights just like

this and i thought and i thought i've

done it now

somehow

i've gone to the

pulse at realms time

i don't think so

they should have been

or maybe the pulse is very very faint if

at all

i would be warm that's true but they

were panicking

yeah yeah

you were resurrected

[Laughter]

next to your body

[Laughter]

yeah just in cessation i i am not dead

i'm just in cessation

yes

oh no

on the third day he rose again

this is the difference between one who

is dead and gone

and a biku who has attained to the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

venerable sir how does emergence from

the cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness come about

householder

when ibiku is emerging from the

attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling unconsciousness it

does not occur to him i will emerge from

the attainment

of the cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness or i am emerging from

the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness or

i have emerged from the attainment of

the cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness but rather his mind has

previously been developed in such a way

that it leads him to such a state

now we're talking about the

predetermined or the determination there

is an intention

right that the mind will emerge

at after a certain point or under

certain conditions

and so

that determination

is made and then the mind goes into

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

and then emerges back that's dependent

upon that

prior determination

is that news

so for example when

we did the scientific testing

right i told the scientists when they

had me all hooked up to those different

that octopus you know on my head

and i said okay you're going to see

something happen in 10 minutes

right it's going to dip down and then

after 90 minutes at the 90 minute mark

something's going to come back up

and exactly at the 10-minute mark

everything ceased and at the 90-minute

mark everything came back up that's

because of prior determination

there was a determination that after 10

minutes

mine goes into cessation

after 10 after 90 minutes

there is the arising

no the eeg diminishes at the 10 minute

mark and then it starts to become more

active again

is elongated or it's yeah

no

because there's still other electrical

activity going on

there's a vitality going on there's a

metabolism going on

that cessation is conditioned by an

intention

the prior determination conditions

the process of cessation to happen

but in cessation there's no conditions

it's a cessation of conditions

themselves

feeling is a condition perception is a

condition

and feeling and perception are both

conditioned as well

that's why when you come out of

cessation now as we'll get into it there

is the

unconditioned the experience of nirvana

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question venerable sir

when a beku is emerging from the

attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

which of these things arise in him first

the bodily formation the verbal

formation or the mental formation

what do you guys think probably in

reverse

householder when a beak was emerging

from the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

first the mental formation arises

after that the bodily formation and

after that the verbal formation

oh wow

[Laughter]

oh what was that

what just happened

and so

saying good venerable sir he then asked

me for the

venerable sir when ebiku has emerged

from the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness how

many kinds of contact touch him

householder

when abiku has emerged from the

attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

three kinds of contact touch him

emptiness contact signless contact

undirected contact

the contact with nibana

that which is signless

no object

that which is undirected no craving

there

that which is empty completely no self

there

this initial contact with the nirvana

element then gives rise to feeling

the feeling of joy and relief the mental

formation arises with

joy and relief

and then the feeling is the joy and

relief is felt in the body

bodily formation and then there's oh wow

the verbal formation

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

when venerable sir when ebiku has

emerged from the attainment of the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness towards what does his mind

slant

slope and incline

householder when ibiku has emerged from

the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling unconsciousness his

mind slants slopes and inclines towards

seclusion

now this is a translation from the word

viveka

in pali

so one idea is seclusion that the mind

wants to be secluded but there's another

translation of viveka which is

discernment or wisdom

discerning the links of dependent

origination

his mind inclines towards seeing

dependent origination

good venerable sir chitta the

householder said

then having delighted and rejoiced in

the venerable kamaboos statement he

asked him a further question

venerable sir how many things are

helpful for the attainment

of the cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness

indeed householder you are asking last

what you should have asked first

but still i will answer you

for the attainment

of the cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness two things are helpful

serenity and insight

questions

that is a smart householder he is yes

oh you had a question first

please

go

i thought ahead the same question i i

was

i remember

once said something like

if someone

even if someone

attained ibana became

the

you know his or her mind would be so

pure that they couldn't stay in the

world anymore they would have to

have to go to you know join a monastery

basically

or uh

you know they had like seven days to do

something like that or they would die or

something like that does that

um

i'm sorry how does that square with this

because it seems like it's if the person

came out of

cessation like if

you know

if cheetah had a

no but stream enters attain nibana too

right

and uh so do saka de games and onigamis

okay so there's never a point where oh

my god my mind is so clear i need to go

seclude myself from

the rest of the world

lose it i mean you completely lose

interest in things like

supporting yourself for example

and so that's why you then go into

the homeless life you go into

becoming a monastic because that's where

you get your requisites

because you just don't have any interest

in doing this or that your mind is

completely

at peace

it's not looking for this or that or

another

and you want to teach and let people

know but then you get supported

you get supported as a teacher or

whatever it might be

yeah samara hats have the analytical

knowledges and samara hats are saying

i'll just mop up the place you know

a solitary arahant

leave me alone just want to be in my

cabin

yeah but feed me just leave it outside

the door

i i never you know i never saw any

indication of that because the buddha

was always oh you're not now okay you go

there right over there

they don't

go away because they're just completely

right okay

and even if they're not inclined to

teach but you ask them a question

because of the experience that they've

had

they'll be able to talk to you from

experience so it'll be like they're

teaching you anywhere

no my question is uh first of all it's

like when we do when do you do this

determination like before the sitting or

you know like

i'm in the full job i'm going to take a

break and do the determination

so i mean the way the exercise the

determination starts off is you start

off with the first shauna then you move

on to the second channel you do certain

kinds of things you get into the first

jhana for a certain time period you come

out of it and you do like micro jhanas

it's like five seconds in that genre and

coming out in 10 seconds and so on you

do that with each of the jhanas

and then you finally do that with

cessation so let's say

these are all preparatory exercises

leading to two words determining if you

can just get into cessation

now i think the traditional

understanding within certain communities

is that you go all the way up to

nothingness

and you come out of nothingness and you

say okay now when i attain neither

perception non-perception then mind will

go into cessation

but you can just go into cessation

just like that

yeah

no oh oh there was two of them

you won't get stuck for more than a few

minutes seconds

oh no no no

but even then if you go into it right

like where you do have an attainment

it's only for like a split second

it's not even for

a couple of seconds it's just like that

yeah you wouldn't even know how long you

were in it for it's just like

it might have been there for a minute or

it might have been there for a split

second

so there's a fear that comes up when

people first experience cessation and

then later on they're like oh what if i

get stuck

but as far as

i know i've never heard of anybody

getting stuck in cessation

they won't even know

the reason i asked that you were

in your episode but you didn't determine

you had sent them you had set your clock

right and i just wondered for someone

who falls into it

oh can you shake them out of it when

they're in it but it would be so brief

that there wouldn't be no point having

to yeah

right you would only notice when you

have that oh wow like oh what just

happened and that was just for that

split moment

yeah it seems that you needed

determination to actually keep to keep

you in it yeah you need a determination

yeah

so for those of you who might be afraid

to go into cessation

don't worry

you're not going to get stuck in it

don't worry we'll hold the funeral for

you

[Laughter]

it'll be great

fireworks fireworks there you go you

won't be there so

they're going to be cheap virus

[Laughter]

so i have a related story that

people might be interested in

at the end of the last retreat a person

came up to me and told me a story about

this

and the person said

this was a great retreat

something prompted this and

i was going in and out this

cessation for

most of the time

and

having

these repeated

experiences

and it was great

there was no concern in that person's

voice whatsoever yeah

and the smile

never left right

i know who you're talking about

yeah

so any more thoughts about you know

say onongo can go into cessation but yet

not attain our hardship

yeah i mean we had a brief discussion

about this a little bit which is uh you

know

i i would say not every cessation

or every nibana experience is going to

result in what would be the best way to

put it it would be like not every

cessation

would result in a path attainment or

fruition attainment it's the nibana

element followed by it

that can result in the breaking of the

feathers or weakening of the fetters but

it seems like when they come in and out

of cessation

they are allowing the mind the ability

to weaken that fetter

right but then the mana experience is

the one that

completely rusts it out

because in that moment of nibana the

mind is utterly pure right it's

completely unfettered completely

untainted for that brief moment of

nirvana

everybody is let's say an arahat because

there's nothing going on it's completely

pure but then

when you hold on to that experience and

say oh that was great i want more of

that the craving arises again or the

identification with it arises again

and so certain feathers are destroyed

like in stream entry we know that this

the federer of self-you

the federer of doubt and the feather of

clinging to rights and rituals are gone

because you've experienced it for

yourself and you realize oh this is an

impersonal process and this is the way

leading to nibbana so i don't have any

more doubt about it and no clinging no

rights and rituals is going to take me

there so there's no longer any clinging

to it

but then there's the weakening of

um

sensual craving and aversion for the

sakuragami so they have an experience of

nibana

and the joy is again there but it might

not be as

that much of a fire works as before it

will still be there the relief will

still be there

but then with the onigami

there's like

there's a lot of equanimity actually

there there's a lot of like balance

there

because now there's no craving going on

but there's

there's joy of the dharma there's

clinging to the dhamma still there

and then with the arahat when the the

contact with the divana element happens

there's no

grasping onto any experience it's just

seeing things as they actually are so

because there's no fuel in the form of

grasping

none of the taints can arise because

those taints will arise dependent upon

fuel

of craving or identification or views or

ignorance or whatever it might be but

that's not no no action when the feeling

arises no action mental verbal or

physical leads to craving for that it's

just seeing things as they are

but completely pure

so nothing fetters it anymore so the

conceit goes away and therefore the

restlessness goes away the craving for

jhana craving for formless states goes

away and obviously

ignorance is destroyed

well it seems like cessation there's you

know it's like

there's a little hum left

nirvana right and there's some sort of

you know it's conditioned right

condition right

you're saying between

cessation and ibana or

after the banner okay so

what is the difference between cessation

cessation is a cessation of all

conditions

the unconditioned state that results

well we can't save results because then

it says it's conditioned but the

nirvana's the the bana

element itself

has no craving in it

it has

no object that it perceives

it's just completely unconditioned but

the cessation

itself is not cond is not unconditioned

it's the

cessation is the process in which all

things cease

and then when everything comes back on

there is the unconditioned

so the unconditioned is there in

cessation

the unconditioned is there

but there's there's contact made once

the emergence from cessation happens

it's another state

right born of cessation right

or to say the neban element was already

there yeah it's just now the contact was

made after the mental formations arose

but isn't it rising due to

the

damachaka seeing the lengths of the

dependent origination

yeah

so in the order of

what we're talking about there's

cessation

then there's contact with nibana

and then there's the seeing of the links

the reason is because we talk about the

contact with the nirvana element that is

to say the first contact that happens

the mental contact then the formations

arise dependent upon that contact and

the formations that arise depending upon

that contact are pure

for that first time they come up that's

why you see whatever it is that you see

but then after that there's the joy and

relief

that joy and relief is conditioned

and that joy and relief if taken and

clung to

results in the re-fettering of the mind

pure formations

void of any craving

i was listening to a talk by uh

and he said a few things about nirvana i

wonder if you'd agree with he said

it's

there's a consciousness but it's not

one of the

he said there's like a con there's

some kind of consciousness there and

some kind of

happiness but it's not a feeling and the

consciousness isn't one of the links

and he also said it's a

technically always right here

it's technically always right right here

but it's not something we've ever

experienced before unless you've gone

through this process

i wonder if he's referring to the follow

some apathy though

that's what i'm wondering

yeah all summer party is one and then

another one is like uh uh in i think

it's come from abu dhabi is always

believe that

you know

all in

here is

in the dark room

the experience of that

well we think about when we're going

through the process of the jaundice

right what we're doing is we're

de-conditioning the mind so we're

removing conditions

it's the cessation of conditions which

include

conditioned feeling and perception

and perception and feeling themselves

being conditions

so that process of cessation is where

all conditions cease

right all feeling all perception all

consciousness dependent upon formations

cease because even in that

uh moment of cessation all sankharas

also cease

which then what's remaining

is the unconditioned because there's

nothing there to condition it that's

just unconditioned

but now you have to be very careful when

you use language like this because then

it's like oh so nirvana is

is like a qua it's it's a substratum

you know that's not the case here what

we're saying is nirvana is the

unconditioned in the sense that there's

no conditions present

which allows the mind then to see

dependent origination as it arises

pure

pure dependent origination that is to

say

formations void of craving

consciousness void of craving namarupa

and then contact so what happens is okay

so what happens is

cessation

contact with the nibanal that's the

first contact that arises that's

unconditioned

then the formations that arise are the

mental formations that allow you to

experience feeling of

joy and relief

then there is the joy and relief that's

felt in the body

bodily formations arise and then there's

like wow what was that that's the verbal

formations right

so now the feeling and the perception of

that is experienced in the first set

of dependent origination

then

when the mind says wow i really like

that inclines to it

then the next set of formations if clung

to

are now fettered again by the craving

for that experience

but if there's no clinging to the dharma

then the formations that do arise are

not rooted in the craving

so in this snap there's like so many

dependent origination cycles going on so

in that moment of contact with nirvana

right the experience of nibana you see

pure dependent origination that is pure

formations pure consciousness and then

the feeling

right as a result of that contact

and then if that feeling is clung to

then there's formations that are rooted

in that clinging

and then you still have some feathers

there some taints there

until you come out everything is

reflective

oh what was that and then

what are these right because

it's so fast that

you know i can't tell this is a new form

right

i mean after you have that attainment

usually the mind is like filled with

pure energy right it's just like

it doesn't want to look back it's just

feeling the joy and the relief

but if you do have an experience like

that it would be useful for you to use

the mind to reflect back on what

happened that way you have better

clarity on

seeing dependent origination you see it

regardless at some point or another but

if you look back you might have better

clarity on what you just saw

a better understanding

no question about some of the mechanics

here so

so two two parts so the first part is

you know from

from where i am now

to the experience of cessation

if you will

i am in the stream of dependent

origination

right i'm rooted in ignorance my

formations are rooted in ignorance my

consciousness my contact followed it

right

so i'm curious

you know where is the free will if you

will you know to

even start making a different choice

because even my contact

is has been shaped and i know we've

we've talked about

um

that at the point of contact or feeling

comes up that's what you can

choose if you will right but it seems

like even making that choice it has to

come from some

prior contact or formation that's

already set and also still part of this

dependent origination stream so that's

the first part so assuming we know we

get through that

i have the experience of cessation i

come out of cessation

and here i'm trying to work out the

answer and i would appreciate you i'm

here so

i come out of cessation

i make contact with uh the banana

element

um

so that's the first contact uh

formations arise

um

if they're pure

you know informations are pure

experience the joy and relief

and if there's craving

right then you kind of

keep going right you have to keep going

like obviously that neuron

so

where does that craving come from and

the reason i ask is because i was

imagining

like dependent origination almost like

the cartoons you're running along and

you go off the cliff

right once you hit cessation you're off

the cliff you're off this causal link

off this causal train i'm now off of

this make contact with the

you know unconditioned

so

there are no

i'm not part of these links how can this

craving still be there and so then i

thought well maybe it's because of the

feathers right the letters are still

there

uh so you have this moment you know

you're in the young condition but at the

end of the day your minds are your your

mind is so feathered so that's where the

craving comes from

but then

for the onigami

they call this a

they don't have craving anymore right so

but the anagami still runs the risk of

coming into contact with ibana and

saying oh the risk of coming in contact

with nevada did you say that

did you say the risk of coming into

contact with nirvana

opportunities the opportunity

do a cost benefit analysis before you do

i really want to do this you know

because i really don't right

but

here

you know they come into contact with

ibana so two cases right the underground

who comes in contact with ivana

you know federers are broken no craving

arises

not even for that experience itself

they're done

but then there's a second anagami who

has that experience but they're still

i mean we can't call it craving because

that feather was released already but

still something holds this person

back to sylvia dhamma where does that

come from now okay

so what we're saying here is you have

contact with nirvana there's the

experience of nirvana

the mind touches nirvana

and then the feeling that arises is

conditioned by that experience right

that's all the joy and relief that you

experience but contact also gives rise

to formations

so when we're talking about dependent

origination right contact is one of

those things that gives rise

to intention gives rise to formations

gives rise to feeling gives rise to

perception and so on and so forth so the

next set of formations that come up

are pure and allow the mental feeling of

joy and relief to happen now dependent

upon that

if the mind grabs onto that feeling of

joy

then the next set of formations as a

result of that choice

will be fettered

but before that all those formations

that arose were unfettered

and what if it doesn't grab onto that

then they will not be fettered

okay and then what happens and then one

is in our

oh so one

so it's either or

right so if there is that clinging to

the dharma which is

there's no lust there

there's no

aversion there but there is

i am experiencing this and i enjoy the

dharma

there is see for the anigami there is

equanimity there

the first joy that you experience as a

stream enter is just

amazing because it's you've never

experienced this joy before

and then eventually then you when you

become an onigami there's actually more

equanimity than joy there there's more

balance there

okay so

let's say the

saktagami

okay there's still

some some joy is there

so then

is it

when that first stream of dependent

origination

comes by

and there isn't

a grasping onto it right

then what

does that person then

so you're saying somebody who attains

anagami

no

yeah

would then become an onigami

there the joy instead is just seen as it

is which is just an impersonal process

it just happens automatically as a

result of continually six houring

so this process of craving or not

craving this process of clinging or not

clinging to it is dependent upon how

much right effort you've applied prior

that's why one keeps saying

that your choices are inclining towards

either craving or not craving depending

upon

how many times you've been mindful

of that and six art it the more you six

are it having that sharp

clear mindfulness

the more automatic your choice is to not

crave for something

so you 6r all the way to our hardship

so

to build up what you're saying you

understand correctly so the challenge

for

for a stream mentor

right hasn't done this long enough right

so they have this experience in the

bottom and experience a drawing belief

they may not even realize that they're

clinging and craving because sometimes

right experience stream entry and don't

know they experienced it so

but they feel so good and they're like

wow i feel amazing

i had this experience this was wonderful

this was awesome

i want to do this again

even though they don't know what it is

so it's just automatic but as they as

they continue up the

you know up the liberation chain

um

the more they the more a person

six hours and starts to incline the

formations towards the wholesome to

incline towards not craving towards

letting go the next time these

experiences happen they're more likely

to not

but that happens automatically right

right so there will be at that moment

they're not choosing anymore it's like

whatever choices you have made previous

right now the fruition of that karma

the intention that you had

is not coming into for into

the the forefront

at that point in time

there's this question of

uh araha had ceased to find an

origination four times monogamy three

times two times

one way to look at it is that in in the

case of a stream enter they see

something but they're not able to fully

comprehend what they saw

but i will say that afterwards a stream

entry can go back to the sutas

and then even in their own daily life

start to see dependent origination like

oh

here is the contact here is the feeling

here is so and so

and then once you get more clarity on

this in the second time around for the

sakuragami you might see more links like

in the case of

ananda

he saw only certain links he didn't see

sixth sense spaces he didn't see

formations he didn't see ignorance

but he saw certain links

in the case of the

sakuragami they would probably have more

clarity on dependent origination so they

might see

those links and kind of even be able to

say oh that was probably the formations

there's an intuition that comes up and

with the anagami it's much clearer

with the arahant it's like they can they

can like it's like

in that moment of seeing

it goes it this is going to sound very

much like science fiction but

it goes beyond kind of the notion of

time

because you're just seeing like almost

in slow motion

or the perception of it is in slow

motion that you're like oh here is the

formation here is the consciousness

here's the namarupa

here's the contact and the sixth sense

basis here's the contact

not only that but with the arhat they

can go backward and see oh

this is where this was this is where

this was so when we talk about the

forward order and the reverse order

the arahat sees that

forward and reverse

upon reflection

so as to one time two times three times

four times

that might happen but

i think experientially not all the time

i mean depending upon people that we've

spoken to probably not all the time

the links themselves are kind of a flow

of experience right so these this

concept we're placing on them that

there's distinct yeah

this is the mind's way of perceiving

what it's what is actually happening

right that's why for some people

formations are seen as dashes or they're

seen as lines or they're seen as circles

or

they're seen as like umbrellas or

whatever it might be just little things

that they see circles and ringlets and

things but that's just the way that that

particular mind

is perceiving or interpreting what is

happening in the flow of dependent

origination

so it's seeing reality as it is

dependent upon how mind perceives it

that's why the buddha says as to that

ananda it's dependent upon their

faculties

so it's almost

if our experience is like a river

right you might think that the worldly

the pituitary

goes there sees the river just kind of

flowing by

but then you get like the noble ones

who'll come and they'll actually be able

to

map out if you will

it links in the stream as as it's

happening and you know each each with

more refinements if you will and then

the the araha will actually

you know i guess like

yeah like for them for so for the stream

enter the entering the stream and the

stream is a little muddy they can see

the rocks and they can see little fish

and they can see little algae or this or

moss or whatever

a little bit but they can't really

catch it it's just like a little muddled

and with the sakuragami they see a

little bit more and then upon reflection

and upon their experience then they're

able to see oh that was the moss oh that

was the rock and everything and with the

anagami it becomes even clearer and with

the arahat they can actually swim

upstream and say oh that was where the

rock is you know exactly this is where

the rock is this is where the moss is

this is where the salmon is this is

where

the whatever it might be

so it just becomes clearer and clearer

and clearer

just to make sure that i was

understanding right but

so like who'da will give different

amount of links and different suits is

so i guess what i was

just confirming is are there clear

delineations between the links

or it seems like

those are just concepts we're placing on

a flow of experience where there's no

clear delineate i mean clearly there is

a distinction between

say feeling and perception but

it seems like

at some point it's arbitrary where we

place the divider lines between

length or what we're calling a link

no there is there is a pretty good

delineation point it's just that as it

becomes clearer you start to see those

delineations

so as you get

deeper and deeper into practice and then

as you get higher and higher attainments

you actually do see oh here is the

contact oh here is the feeling

but however you perceive it is just

dependent upon your faculties but you

have a clear vision of those

delineations

well i think there's some

like you're talking about where he

starts say with consciousness

where he just he doesn't right he says

with consciousness there's namarupa

yeah so but the formation

the formations is missing right

it's his audience he's talking to the

audience like uh

ananda

at that point had been become a stream

enter

so he was not able to delineate where

the ignorance was he was not able to

delineate where the formations were or

this is where the sixth sense bases were

so those three particular

links are not mentioned in dignika 15

which we went through a few days ago

and for the reason being is the buddha

is speaking to what ananda understands

then

at his level i see yeah and then there's

another one where sometimes

the later links are grouped into bigger

categories yes

yes

and then if you go to majaminikayan9 you

have sariputta who goes not even

not only just through all 12 links but

he says even before that there's the

taints

and he says the ignorance is dependent

upon the taints and the teens are

dependent upon the

the

ignorance

an actual link because i feel like it's

not really a link but the setting the

the contamination

of the others i mean

consciousness and formations are really

things

but i feel like ignorance is like the

paint that paints all the other things

it's a condition

right so it's not really

a link

as such as the other endings but it

arises dependent upon the fact that one

is not able to see

and so it

it's seen as a link because it's saying

this is what conditions formations

ignorance

dependent upon ignorance

these formations arise meaning dependent

on the fact that one does not see or

experience or ignores

the four noble truths then certain

formations will arise

because you just don't know i mean a

baby

seeing a flame might put their finger in

the plane but they don't know they don't

know

ignorance

so that's what i was saying i mean

obviously this is not in the sutras but

i'm just terming in this way there's the

mundane ignorance and the super mundane

ignorance the mundane ignorance is that

you don't know that you don't know

right you don't know about the four

noble truths because you've never heard

about them before

but the super mundane is

you've heard about them before but you

don't

remember them

the lack of

right

the consciously incompetent person right

yes six r's are

deconditioning the formations of

ignorance every time you six arm

you are mindful

which means you're remembering to

observe how mind's attention moved

when you do that you're using your

ability to use yoni so many sakara to

see things as they are

that they are they are impermanent

not worth holding on to and therefore

not considered to be self

every time you see it you don't project

upon it you just see it as it actually

is

ignorance starts to

the paint chips away

until

right

the mindfulness enables the yoni so

money sakara yeah otherwise you know

mindfulness alone

wrong mindfulness would be uh i'm eating

i'm paying attention to how i'm eating

right that's wrong mindfulness right

but mindfulness here is like oh the mind

was distracted and it's taking this

personal

but i see this as being impersonal and

letting it go

when you're using right effort which is

the six r's that allows you to be

utilizing right mindfulness

that's why it is in that particular

sequence the eightfold path is in that

particular sequence right effort leads

to right mindfulness right mindfulness

leads to right collectedness

satisfied delighted

let's hear some merit

may suffering ones be suffering free may

the fear struck fearlessly

may the grieving shed all grief and may

all beings find relief

may all beings share this merit that we

have thus acquired for the acquisition

of all kinds of happiness

may beings inhabiting space and earth

devas and nagas of mighty power

share this merit of ours

may they long protect the buddha's

dispensation

saudi

[Music]

you

[Music]

so

[Music]

okay so today we're gonna go over

voidness

or emptiness

and the sign list

before i continue

i have

three suitors i'm going through but

they're all

going to be short

okay

so don't worry

so the first one is majjima nikaya one

two one

chula sunyata suta

the shorter discourse on

voidness

thus have i heard on one occasion the

blessed one was living at savathi in the

eastern park in the palace of nagara's

mother

then when it was evening the venerable

ananda rose from the meditation

went to the blessed one and after paying

homage to him

he sat down at one side and said to the

blessed one

venerable sir on one occasion the

blessed one was living in the sakyan

country

where there is a town of the sakyan's

name nagaraka

there venerable sir i heard and learned

this from the blessed one's own lips

now ananda i often abide in voidness

did i hear that correctly venerable sir

did i learn that correctly

attend to that correctly

remember that correctly

certainly ananda you heard that

correctly

learned that correctly

attended to that correctly

remember that correctly as formerly

ananda so now too

i often abide in voidness

if you recall a couple of days ago we

were talking about the seven types of

people

right

one liberated by wisdom one liberated

both ways and so on and so forth

well there's one more person

the eighth

type of person

and this is known as the anime davihari

there is a suta in i think the angry

nikaya

where the

there is a brahma or a deva named

thisa

who comes down and he talks about these

seven different types of people

and the monk who's listening to him

listens eagerly and then he goes to the

buddha and tells them this is what i was

told

and then the buddha says but did he not

tell you about the eighth type of person

and that is known as the animita vihari

vihari means one who resides one who

abides

and animata is the signless the signless

collectedness of mind

so as we go through the suta we'll

explore what that means

ananda just as this palace of megara's

mother is void of elephants cattle

horses and mares

void of gold and silver

void of the assembly of men and women

and there is present only this

non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

sangha of bhikkhus

so too a beku not attending to the

perception of village

not attending to the perception of

people

attends the singleness dependent on the

perception

of forest

so there's different ways of

understanding voidness voidness is a

synonym for emptiness

you hear about emptiness in different

schools of buddhism and

usually it's understood as empty of self

so emptiness here is equated with anata

but here the buddha is talking about

emptiness in terms of what is void

of a state so here he's saying just as

this place is void of the elephants and

horses and

and so on and so forth so too

a mind can be void of different kinds of

elements

so we'll

we'll explore what that means

his mind enters into that perception of

force and acquires confidence steadiness

and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbance is there might be

dependent on the perception of village

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of people

those are not here

there is only this amount of disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of forest

so when a monk enters the forest it is

void of villages and cities and towns

it is empty of these things it is empty

of people

but there is only this the perception of

the forest

he understands

he understands this field of perception

is void of the perception of village

this field of perception is void of the

perception of people

there is only present this non-voidness

which means that which is there

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of forest thus he regards it

as void of what is not there but as to

what remains there he understands that

which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this is his

genuine undistorted pure descent

into voidness

again ananda

ibiku not attending to the perception of

people

not attending to the perception of

forest

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of earth

his mind enters into that perception of

earth

and acquires confidence steadiness and

resolution

just as a bull's hide becomes free from

folds

when fully stretched with a hundred pegs

so too a beku not attending to any of

the ridges and hollows of this earth

to the rivers and ravines

the tracts of stumps and thorns

the mountains and uneven places

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of earth

so in other words

now he is only perceiving earth perhaps

just the earth element

and so that is void of all of the

different details of the earth element

there is just earth

he understands whatever disturbances

there might be dependent on the

perception of people

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of forest

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of earth

he understands this field of perception

is void of the perception of people

this field of perception is void of the

perception of forest

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of earth

thus he regards it as void

of what is not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted pure descent

into voidness

now

here it's going to talk about infinite

space

so sometimes the interpretation is he

sees the earth element

and then he takes that as a casino

now remember

a few days ago we talked about kasina

coming from the word kritsna

usually it's understood that kasina

means that one becomes one pointed on

that particular disc of the earth

element

but kritsna actually means whole or

expanded

which means he's actually expanding that

perception of earth and now he's going

to experience that expansion in the form

of infinite space

again ananda a beku

not attending to the perception of

forest

not attending to the perception of earth

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception

of the base of infinite space

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of infinite space

and acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of forest

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of earth

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite space

he understands

this field of perception is void of the

perception of forest

this field of perception is void of the

perception of earth

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite space

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

so what is not there is the perception

of force the perception of earth

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present and what is present

the perception of infinite space

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted pure descent into voidness

again

not attending to the base

sorry not attending to the perception of

earth

not attending to the perception of the

base of infinite space

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of infinite consciousness and

acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus whatever

disturbances there might be dependent

on the perception of earth those are not

present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of infinite space

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

he understands this field of perception

is void of the perception of earth this

field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of infinite space

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted pure descent into voidness

so we understand that the base of

infinite consciousness when you perceive

that

it is empty of the perception of the

base of infinite space

what about the first four janus

what's the first jhana empty of what is

it void of

hindrances

what about the second journal

thinking and examining thought

what about the third channel

joy

what about the fourth

happiness

again ananda ibiku not attending to the

perception of the base of infinite space

not attending to the perception of the

base of infinite consciousness

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of the base of

nothingness

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of nothingness and acquires

confidence steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of infinite space

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the base of the sorry on

the perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance namely

the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of

nothingness he understands this field of

perception is void

of the perception of the base of

infinite space

this field of perception is void

of the perception of the base of

infinite consciousness

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of nothingness

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda

this too is his genuine undistorted pure

descent into voidness

again ananda

ebiku

not attending to the perception of the

base of infinite consciousness

not attending to the perception of the

base of nothingness

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

try saying that five times

perception of the base of neither

perception or non-perception

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of neither perception or

non-perception and acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbance is there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of infinite consciousness

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of nothingness

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

he understands

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of nothingness

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda

this too is his genuine undistorted pure

descent into voidness

again ananda a beku

not attending to the perception of the

base of nothingness

not attending to the perception of the

base of neither perception nor

non-perception

attends to the singleness dependent on

the signless collectedness of mind

his mind enters into that signless

collectedness of mind and acquires

confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of nothingness

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of neither perception nor non-perception

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely

that connected with the six spaces that

are dependent on this body and

conditioned by life

he understands

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of nothingness

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

there is present only this non-voidness

namely that connected with the six bases

that are dependent on this body and

condition by life

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there but as to what remains there

he understands that which is present

thus

this is present

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted

pure descent into voidness

so here the buddha is talking about the

signless collectedness of mind

some of you have experienced this at

some point or another in your meditation

the signless is

much

much subtler than the quiet mind

there comes a point where you are with

quiet mind and there's no vibration

going on at all

but there's this sense of

collectedness around the mind

the mind itself is an object

when we talk about the signless

collectedness of mind

really that comes from the word anamitta

samadhi

anamitta so nimita

which is a sign or an object

and ah which is the non so an objectless

meditation so to speak

what that means is

there comes a point where even the quiet

mind

just fades away and there's just like

blank screen that's there

you're not looking at anything in

particular the mind is just aware

looking past things looking through

things

little things might come up

but as soon as you see them they fade

away and the mind is just completely

purely empty

void of any object

and this is the signless collectedness

of mind

this

mind is so purified

that there are no vibrations happening

the subtlest vibration that happens here

is no is the

is the formation rooted in conceit

the sense of i am the sense of me the

sense of myself

from there there can arise craving there

can arise restlessness they can rise of

they can arise aversion and so on and so

forth

so as soon as you see something you're

no longer in that in the same way as

long as you as soon as you perceive

then you're no longer neither perception

nor non-perception as soon as the mind

takes something as an object

it's no longer in this sign-less

the analogy that i use is it's like you

take a flashlight you switch it on and

you point it to the sky

and when you point to the sky it the

light just goes out into space

but it's not landing on anything

as soon as it lands on something there

is an object there

but because it doesn't land on anything

it is just signless objectless

just pure

observing

not observing anything in particular

just looking

and because eventually

the batteries run out the fuel for that

flashlight runs out

that is to say because there is no more

formations arising because they have

been

relaxed and let go of

and no fuel of attention is being given

to any object in particular

what are their formations or the sense

of i am

or whatever it might be

the battery runs out and the mind's

attention stops

and then one is in cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

so this is a very subtle state

it's not like you have to go there but

this is a state that is accessible

once you get more and more developed in

the practice

once you have certain kinds of

understanding of each of the jhanas

once you have understanding of the quiet

mind and then see the quiet mind itself

as very coarse and let that go now that

happens on its own when the mind becomes

very relaxed and it softens the edges of

the mind softens the edges of

one's attention and awareness and then

that just basically fades away

and there is that pure screen that's

there some people see it as just this

blank screen sometimes it has orange hue

sometimes it has a green hue sometimes

it looks like static

it's just this screen

and nothing in particular

again ananda ibiku not attending to the

perception of the base of nothingness

not attending to the perception of the

base of neither perception nor

non-perception

attends to the singleness dependent on

the signless collectiveness of mind

his mind enters into that signless

collectedness and acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

his he understands thus

this signless collectedness of mind

is conditioned

and volitionally produced

but whatever is conditioned and

volitionally produced is impermanent

subject to cessation

so even this signless collectedness of

mind

is conditioned

it's not the unconditioned

why is it conditioned because there is

still a sense of observer there

there's a sense of there is still an

awareness there which is conditioned

by contact with the mind

the mind and the sinless state

so it's volitionally produced what does

that mean there is an intention to relax

further and further and further

volitionally produced conditioned by

that intention

but once the mind realizes that even

this

is conditioned and therefore impermanent

subject to cessation the mind loses

complete

interest in even the signless state this

is where disenchantment and dispassion

come into

the purview

here the mind becomes so disenchanted so

dispassionate that it doesn't it's not

interested in any formations at all

not interested in any object at all not

even interested in the awareness of the

signless state of mind

and then

there is cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness

when this happens

when he knows and sees thus

his mind is liberated from the taint of

sensual desire

from the taint of being

and from the taint of ignorance

this happens when the mind makes contact

with the nibana element and there is no

grasping on to the joy and relief that's

felt as a result of

contact with the demand element

therefore no more

taint of sensual desire no more taint of

the craving for existence or of becoming

and no more the taint of ignorance

he understands

when it is liberated there comes the

knowledge it is labor it is liberated he

understands birth is destroyed

the holy life has been lived what had to

be done has been done

there is no more coming to any state of

being

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the taint of sensual desire

those are not present here

what disturbances are there dependent

upon the taint of sensual desire

craving

the link of craving

sensual clinging and so on

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the taint of becoming

those are not present here

what disturbances might those be

clinging to existence craving for

existence

bhava

habitual tendencies

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the taint of ignorance

those are not present here

but

yes

tainted formations formations

conditioned by ignorance

ignorance is gone now

there's complete attention and

understanding

of the four noble truths

ignorance is destroyed and what are

disturbances dependent upon that that is

formations rooted in that ignorance

and then further on the lack of

mindfulness when you experience a

feeling all of those disturbances all of

those that are dependent upon

ignorance goes away

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely that connected with the six bases

that are dependent on this body and

conditioned by life

he understands thus

this field of perception is void

of the taint of sensual desire now what

he's talking about is that liberated

mind

whatever it's perceiving all the time it

knows that it is empty

of the taint of sensual desire

this field of perception is void of the

taint of becoming it's empty of the

taint of craving for existence

this field of perception is void of the

taint of ignorance it's empty of

ignorance

there is present only this non-voidness

namely that connected with the six and

spaces that are dependent on this body

and conditioned by life

in essence what is remaining is just the

five aggregates

no longer clung to no longer conditioned

by craving

thus he regards the regards it as void

of what is not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this is his genuine

undistorted pure descent into voidness

supreme and unsurpassed

that's the mind of a liberated being

the mind of an arahat

supreme and unsurpassed

completely empty of all disturbances

of sensual craving

of the desire to become

and of ignorance

whatever recluses and brahmanas

that is to say arahats

in the past entered upon and abided in

pure

supreme unsurpassed voidness

all entered upon and abided in the same

pure supreme unsurpassed voidness

whatever recluses and brahmanas in the

future will enter upon an abiding pure

supreme unsurpassed voidness

all will enter upon and abide in this

same pure supreme unsurpassed voidness

whatever recluses

and brahmanas in the present

enter upon and abide in pure

supreme unsurpassed voidness

all enter upon and abide in this

same

pure supreme unsurpassed voidness

therefore ananda you should train thus

we will enter upon and abide in pure

supreme unsurpassed whiteness

thus you should train yourselves we will

enter into the liberated mind

that is what the blessed one said

the venerable anando was satisfied and

delighted in the blessed one's words

so that's the first sudan

yes

what is this

every step of the way

as opposed to unpure but we'll have a

kind of a

pure in the sense that it's not

um

it's not affected by disturbances

it's just downshift from infinite space

to infinite consciousness

it's just gradual

natural

progression

at each step there was always whatever

disturbance there might be under

previous

concepts these are not here

so just to take infinite consciousness

as an example

so when a person's at an infinite

consciousness whatever disturbances

there might be based on infinite space

here what disturbances would there be

from infinite space the perception of

infinite space

so the perception of the concept of that

the experience of infinite space is not

there in the experience of infinite

consciousness

the experience of infinite consciousness

is not present in the experience of

nothingness

okay so it's not being present it's a

disturbance to the

new stage

basically when you go from infinite

space to infinite consciousness

you're no longer an infinite space

so you're just an infinite consciousness

when you go from infinite consciousness

to nothingness you're just in

nothingness there's no preceding states

of infinite consciousness in nothingness

when you're perceiving

the base of nothingness

so the

so what is the suits are really doing

here

it's starting off with

fourth john

starting out with fort china yeah

right

so he's kind of going backwards through

the whole thing and just letting go so

that's

you know where's before he says well

start first second third yeah

yeah in a sense

so this is just showing you

there's levels of cessation right

so the genres also are levels of

cessation so we yeah so that's what you

can talk about

yeah

so i talked i asked you guys what is uh

what is empty or what is the first genre

empty of

it's the same way of asking what ceases

in the first jhana the hindrances

and in the second jana what ceases is

the vitika vichara and in the third

jhana what ceases is the joy and so on

and so forth so what you're seeing is

these downshifts of the mind so

the the coarser levels of

experience

through the different factors of the

ambience of each of the genres starts to

diminish and cease

yeah it's taking you to the fourth

channel and then

you expand that

and then when you expand that you're now

getting into the experience of

infinite space

there's consciousness so there's feeling

and perceptions

but you're perceiving still you're

perceiving that you're

seeing

you know

it's not nothingness because nothingness

is a perception of that there is nothing

here

but that itself is an object

here the silence is like

the it's like

everything becomes translucent all

objects become translucent it's like

you're seeing through them

rather than looking at them

landing on them

of course

yeah

there's not a rupee even when you're a

cessation of perception feeling in

consciousness if there wasn't

i mean

when we talk about mind and body they

are still present

it says there in the signless state

there is still the sixth sense basis

dependent upon and conditioned by this

life

so the sixth sense bases if they are

still there they're dependent upon

namarupa and so on

it's just that in cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

now that's what we're going to go

through in a bit but cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness the

faculties are said to be clear

the reason is right now when you're

listening to my voice when you're seeing

me when you're experiencing through the

sixth sense basis those are data packets

being received by the sixth sense basis

those are impediments in a sense

but when there's cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness there's

absolutely no activity in the sense

basis

which means

the faculties are clear of the

impediments of these

sensory data packets

so there is a all of the objects the

signs and all of these things

and then for a moment there's no objects

but

perception and consciousness are still

working right

right and then since there's since there

is nothing

yeah there's nothing for it to fuel

to continue it just ceases yeah

so in other words at this point there's

still mental formations

right but verbal formations and bodily

formations have ceased and will

understand as we go through

any other questions

i had a question just about the language

no singleness here is the unification of

mind or it's another way of

understanding the collectedness of mind

there is the collectiveness of mind

the mind is collected around this

perception

okay

yeah non-voidness means that which is

still there okay

i know it's a very interesting way that

they've talked there is this voidness

like the

you know chicken fried chicken there is

this

no so so voidness means empty of

something right so like for example

infinite space or infinite consciousness

is empty of the perception of

infinite space

but there is that which is still present

that's the non-voidness or the

non-emptiness or that which is filled

with

and what is filled the mind is filled

with the perception of infinite

consciousness

right

is that clear

non-void means there's still something

there that's right exactly

i mean if it isn't raining

it's void

right

but there is that non-voidness

namely the sun

you know

[Laughter]

yeah so in the cessation

am i understanding it that then the cars

aren't there or they're suspended

they're suspended they're ceased

okay so the next one the next two are

very short

but they're very interesting and very

deep and subtle so

listen and attend closely

yeah

this is the samytha nikaya 41.7

the godata

now this is actually an extract if you

guys are familiar with

majimenakair43

where sariputta is having that

conversation with maha kotita about the

different aspects of feeling and then

the signless liberation of mind and all

of that this is the same as that

particular section but i'm only going to

talk about this section which is the

extraction from there

oh the page numbers

1325.

on one occasion the venerable godatta

was

dwelling at machi kasunda

in the wild mango grove

then chitta the householder approached

the venerable godatta paid homage to him

and sat down to one side now chitta the

householder he was known to be in

anagami

and he was somebody who knew how to

enter the cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness

he was also somebody who taught the

monks because he was very adept in

meditation so sometimes the buddha would

send him send them to him to talk about

the finer points of how to get into

cessation and so on

the venerable godatta then said to him

as he was sitting to one side

householder the measureless liberation

of mind the liberation of mind by

nothingness

the liberation of mind by emptiness

and the signless liberation of mind

are these things different in meaning

and also different in phrasing

or are they one in meaning and different

only in phrasing

there is a method venerable sir by which

these things are different in meaning

and also different in phrasing

and there is a method by which they are

one in meaning and different only in

phrasing

and what venerable sir

is the method by which these things are

different in meaning and also different

in phrasing

here ibiku dwells pervading one quarter

with the mind imbued with

loving-kindness

likewise the second quarter the third

quarter and the fourth quarter thus

above below across and everywhere and to

all as to himself

he dwells pervading the entire world

with the mind imbued with loving

kindness

exalted vast measureless without

hostility without ill will

does that sound familiar

he dwells pervading one quarter with the

mind imbued with compassion and so on

with the mind imbued with altruistic joy

with the mind imbued with equanimity

likewise the second quarter the third

quarter and the fourth quarter thus

above below across and everywhere and to

all as to himself

he dwells pervading the entire world

with a mind imbued with equanimity or

altruistic joy or compassion

vast exalted measureless without

hostility without ill will

this is called the measureless

liberation of mind

now there's a way in which they use the

word liberation

that means the

liberation of mind which is liberated by

the taints and the liberation of the

mind where the hindrances are no longer

present which is in china

so right now what they're talking about

in terms of the measure measureless

liberation of mind

is that mind which is imbued with loving

kindness or any of the brahma viharas

and radiates it outward

and what venerable sir is the liberation

of mind by nothingness

here by completely transcending the base

of the infinity of consciousness

aware that there is nothing a beak who

enters and dwells in the base of

nothingness

this is called the liberation of mind by

nothingness

pretty straightforward

and what venerable sir is a liberation

of mind by emptiness

here a biku gone to the forest or to the

foot of a tree or to an empty hut

reflects thus

empty is this of self

or of what belongs to self

this is called the liberation of mind by

emptiness

now

if i remember correctly bonte talked

about a practice that he did

where he would actually look back and

see where did this thought arise right

whose thought is this

and he started to see the emptiness of

self of these thoughts

emptiness of self of this body and so on

and so in that process one enters the

emptiness liberation of mind

liberation in the sense that it is void

of any of the hindrances one is just

experiencing

anata there

and what venerable sir is the signless

liberation of mind

here with non-attention to all signs

when we say signs that say object

non-attention to all objects

a bike who enters and dwells into

the signless collectedness of mind this

is called the signless liberation of

mind

this venerable sir is the method by

which these things

are different in meaning and also

different in phrasing

and what venerable sir is the method by

which these things are one in meaning

and different only in phrasing

so now we're talking about the

measureless liberation of mind the

liberation of mind by nothingness

the emptiness liberation of mind and the

signless liberation of mind they're

different words different adjectives

that mean the same thing now as follows

all right

lust venerable sir

is a maker of measurement

hatred is a maker of measurement

delusion is a maker of measurement in

other words when there is greed present

when there is hatred present when there

is delusion present there is a comparing

going on a measuring going on and that

is conceit mana

another word from mana is to measure

that is to compare

i am greater than this or he is better

than me

and so on so forth

for one whose taints are destroyed

these have been abandoned cut off at the

root

made like palm stumps obliterated so

that they are no more subject to future

arising

to whatever extent they there are

measureless measureless

liberations of mind the unshakable

liberation of mind is declared the chief

among them

now that unshakable liberation of mind

is empty of lust empty of hatred

empty of delusion

so this is referring to a liberated mind

a mind liberated from the taints

lost venerable sir is a something hatred

is a something

delusion is a something

so when we say that what we're saying is

lust

is a

concept

greed is a concept delusion is a concept

it's creates something in the mind it

creates a sense of this is me this is

mine this is myself

for one whose taints are destroyed

these have been abandoned cut off at the

root

made like palm stumps

obliterated so that they are no more

subject to future arising

to whatever extent there are liberations

of mind by nothingness the unshakable

liberation of mind is declared the chief

among them

that unshakeable liberation of mind is

empty of lust

empty of hatred

empty of delusion

lust venerable sir is a maker of science

hatred is a maker of science delusion is

a maker of science

so objects

objects of repulsion objects of

attraction objects of identification

when there's greed hatred or delusion

there is a sense of this is mine

this is me this is myself

and so i don't like this

there's a sense of there is that that i

don't like there's a sense of there is

that which i like there is sense of i am

that

and so when there is greed there is a

craving for something

when there is hatred there is an

aversion for something when there is

delusion there is a

identification with something and that's

something being an object of one's

desire one's aversion or one's

identification

for one whose taints are destroyed

these have been abandoned

cut off at the root

made like palm stumps obliterated so

that they are no longer subject

to future arising

to whatever extent there are sign less

liberations of mind so there is a

signless collectedness of mind where

there is no object but there is still

the sense of conceit that might arise

until there isn't

the unshakable liberation of mind that

which is free of the taints is declare

the chief among them

now that unshakeable liberation of mind

is empty of lust

empty of hatred

empty of delusion

this venerable ser is the method by

which these things are one in meaning

and different only in phrasing

it is again for you householder it is

well gained by you householder in that

you have the eye of wisdom that ranges

over the deep word of the buddha

that sounds like

yeah

is it 44 or 43

44

oh

well

yeah

well the next truth that we're going to

do is actually

sounds like it's an it's an extract

either from 43 or 44 as well

you'll see what i mean

any questions before we continue

right

yeah

that's the only way you can compare that

oh yeah he's taller than i am

you know

yeah so

they're the same in meaning of different

phrasing to the same meaning insofar as

they're referring

they're all destroyed

no they're all referring to

the mind of a liberated

they're different than meaning because

you have okay so you have for example

the measureless liberation of mind here

liberation is a temporary liberation

because it's liberated from hindrances

when you're radiating love and kindness

compassion joy or equanimity there's no

hindrances there so in that sense it's

liberated

when you are in

nothingness there's no hindrances there

in that sense you're liberated

when you see anatha

the emptiness of self in all things

conditioned

and unconditioned too then there is

that emptiness liberation of mind

because there's no hindrances there when

you're in the signless state

there's no hindrances there in that

sense you're liberated from them

so that's how they are different in

meaning and different in phrasing

but when they're one in meaning they're

all pointing to that liberation of mind

which is liberated from the taints

liberation

but when they're the same meanings and

phrasing you're pointing to the

liberation of mine from all things

different in name is referring to

or different in meaning

and different in phrasing is referring

to the different kinds of liberation

different types of liberation different

categories of liberation

there is the category of the measureless

liberation when you are in infinite

space you're sending out loving kindness

compassion joy i mean in any of the

formless attainments

when it says that he transcends

the base of infinite consciousness he is

liberated by nothingness meaning now

he's in nothingness

that's the liberation of mind

it's a category of a liberation of mind

and then when he sees the anata

the not-self of every experience

that is a category of liberation of mind

and when he's in signless

collectedness of mind he's in a category

of liberation

but when we talk about the ultimate

liberation

there's different ways you could call

that

ultimate liberation by different ways

because of the fact that they are free

of the taints because the taints

create the sense of comparison create

the sense of something there create the

sense of an object

and so in that sense

they have different names for it

depending upon how you see it but

they're all referring to the same thing

in the second

section

the first part

they're

pointing to a liberated mind but in the

context of

liberation from instances right

temporary liberation

right meditative states

right and the second part

that's the mind that's just completely

free

it's 43 no

yes

oh the dhamma eye right the i always oh

no it's the

is it the eye of dhamma or the

uh

like the eyes like the

is it

oh there's the eye that that's there's

the divine eye

there's the eye of the dharma there's

the

this eye

and then what else

the eye of panya the eye of insight and

so on

but the eye of dhamma would be one that

sees dependent origination one who

unders that which understands dependent

origination

yeah let's read that again it says here

it is again for your householder it is

well gained by you householder in that

you have the eye of wisdom that ranges

over the deep word of the buddha

so here it's

the eye of wisdom or i say i would say

the eye of insight the ability to

penetrate the dharma

and be able to explain it in a certain

way

not necessarily right in a sense he has

the analytical knowledges yeah

but before

no see

before

arises it said that the eye of wisdom

right

yes

yeah

or you could say the eye of wisdom

awakens the dhamma chakra the eye of

dhamma yeah

this is i think panyaca which is the eye

of insight

yeah okay

yes it's awakened because one sees

one sees dependent origination at that

point

yes

keep looking

you're not ignoring them

you're not ignoring them you're aware

that they're there but as soon as your

eyes go your eye of attention goes there

it's like now you're looking at

something

you're looking at a sign

but if you're just

seeing through it as being translucent

then the attention doesn't get

fueled by that particular formation

right allow them to just

and then they will go because there's no

attention given to them it's like in the

very seeing of it it's going to start to

fuel further formations

but the mind automatically just lets go

of them at this point it's just relaxing

them

but as soon as you engage with them now

the attention tightens around it and now

you're no longer in the silence because

you're taking it as an object

so

so is it like i'm looking in your

direction

and i mean i could see a little bit of

crew

chairs or something like that but

i would just keep looking in this

direction

i mean they're there because they're

there but the second i

actually turned to him now he's like a

full-blown

object so it's the coon-less

collectedness of mine

[Laughter]

did i get it right

that you said lust hate and delusion

are concepts

or they create concepts

[Laughter]

it's all it's all it's an all

all matrix

it's the matrix

that's all it is

it's the coding

there you go that's all you got to do

everybody has to just change the name to

neo and now you are the one

okay

moving on

this is sami nikaya 41.6

page

1322.

this is known as the kamabu suta

on one occasion the venerable kamabu was

dwelling at machi kasanda in the wild

mango grove

then chitta the householder approached

the venerable kamabu paid homage to him

sat down to one side and said to him

vulnerable sir how many kinds of

formations are there

now chitta already knows all of this but

he's just having a dialogue with kamabu

there are householder three kinds of

formations the bodily formation

the verbal formation and the mental

formation

good venerable sir chitta the

householder

said so he's acknowledging him okay you

know your stuff good

then having delighted and rejoiced in

the venerable kamaboos statement

he asked him a further question

but venerable sir what is the bodily

formation what is the verbal formation

what is the mental formation

in breathing and out breathing

householder are the bodily formation

so inhalation and exhalation are one

component of the bodily formation there

are other aspects of the bodily

formations when you tighten your arm

what is what are you doing

bodily formations allow you to tighten

your fist bodily formations allow you to

walk they allow you to breathe they

allow you to do other kinds of functions

within the body

but for whatever reason it's only

mentioning inhalation and exhalation and

we'll talk about that a little further

thought and examination are the verbal

formation

so the initial application of thought

or when you are listening to someone and

you start to engage with them

and

speak before you speak there is a

process in your mind

which starts to formulate what you're

going to say and how you're going to

express it

the verbal formations allow that process

to happen

or facilitate that process

perception and feeling are the mental

formations so the way you perceive

things the way you actually experience

everything is dependent upon mental

formations

good venerable sir chitta the

householder said then he asked him a

further question

but venerable sir why are in breathing

and out breathing the bodily formation

why are thought and examination the

verbal formation

why our perception and feeling of mental

formation

householder in breathing and out

breathing are bodily these things are

dependent upon the body

that is why in breathing and out

breathing are the bodily formation

first one thinks and examines

then afterwards one breaks into speech

so what you're calculating what you're

going to say

that is why thought and examination are

the verbal formation

perception and feeling are mental

these things are dependent upon the mind

that is why perception and feeling are

the mental formation

even if you're seeing through the five

physical senses

you're i mean experiencing through the

five physical senses whatever you're

seeing

it's an image created in the mind

whatever you're hearing is an

interpretation of

uh vibrations in the air picked up by

the ear and then interpreted by the mind

whatever you're tasting smelling feeling

with your body all of that is being

interpreted by the mind and therefore

these are all mental

ultimately they are mental that's why in

infinite consciousness even though your

eyes are not active

even though your ears are not active and

you still hear flickers that's happening

on a mental level

because everything

mind is chief mind is the forerunner

this is what it is

everything you're experiencing

ultimately

is interpreted or experienced by the

mind

and this is why they're called mental

formation

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question venerable sir how

does the attainment of the cessation of

perception and feeling and consciousness

come about

householder

when a beku is attaining the cessation

of perception feeling and consciousness

it does not occur to him i will attain

the cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness or i am attaining the

perception the cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness

or i have attained the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness but

rather

his mind has previously been developed

in such a way

that it leads him to such a state

what is that process of development of

mind

six hours going through janus yes

so in other words you cannot intend to

go into cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness until you become a

nanagami or an arab but that's a

different case altogether

but in terms of the attainment there's

one is the attainment and one is the

determination of going into it when

we're talking about the attainment of

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

what we're talking about is how does the

mind experience it how does the mind

go into cessation

right it happens not because you

intended instead

you are letting go

through the six-hour process

letting go of coarser formations that

arise in the form of hindrances

hindrances are nothing but just

collected formations the formation

starts off as a little snowflake and it

drops on the ground and picks up and

turns into a snowball and then

ultimately becomes into this giant

snowball which is the hindrance

so you're letting go of those

and as you get into quiet mind now

you're dealing with little snowflakes

you're melting them away with the six

r's right letting them go

and so you're ceasing certain formations

bodily formation verbal formations

bodily formations and mental formations

and this is how the process of cessation

happens

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

venerable sir

when ebiku is attaining the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

which of these things cease first

ceases first in him the bodily formation

the verbal formation or the mental

formation

what do you guys think

buddy

householder when abiku is attaining the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

first the verbal formation ceases

then the bodily formation ceases then

the mental formations why

right first in jhana the first jhana

there's no speaking going on when you

sit down for meditation no speaking

going on

you have the intention to bring up

loving kindness that's the thinking and

examining thought

but then in the second genre that ceases

now you have self-confidence and

meditation is flowing

so now the verbal formations cease there

yes you can perceive that there is this

here there is that here there is this

here but that's not verbal even though

it might sound like it's verbal it's

perceiving its perception dependent upon

mental formations

now the bodily formation cease when you

get into the fourth channel

because now you're starting to lose

contact with the body and now it's all

going into a mental state now for

whatever reason people have said over

the ages

that

in the fourth jhana breathing ceases

then all dead people are in the fourth

jhana

but what's going on here is that the

mind becomes so calm so collected

that the body becomes so relaxed

that the breathing becomes almost

imperceptible

right

so it's not just the in breathing and

out breathing it's the all bodily

formations related to

the feeling in the body

you might still feel contact when it

comes to a fly landing on your skin and

stuff but otherwise you're not paying

attention to that at all and if you're

not paying attention to that at all

no bodily formations are arising

what about mental formations

when do they cease

in cessation

because mental formations

give rise to feeling and perception when

there is a cessation of feeling

perception and consciousness

that's the cessation of mental

formations

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

venerable sir what is the difference

between one who is dead and gone

and a beaker who has attained the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

householder in the case of one who is

dead and gone

the bodily formation has ceased and

subsided

ceased

and

never to return again

the verbal formation has ceased and

subsided

the mental formation has ceased and

subsided

his vitality is extinguished

his physical heat has been dissipated

and his faculties are fully broken up

his vitality this is the ayu sankharas

vitality that which provides

the life in the body the energy in the

body

is physical heat the heat is dependent

upon the vitality and the vitality is

dependent upon the heat

right

so when there is heat in the body there

is life

and the heat arises dependent upon the

life in the body

so i put that gives an interesting

uh

analogy for this an interesting image he

talks about the flame

right the heat of the flame is there and

there is the vibrance of the flame the

radiance of the flame

that is dependent upon the heat

and so on

so

that heat

is basically the metabolism of the body

that continues

that's still there in cessation as we'll

see vitality is still there faculties

are still there but here the faculties

are broken up

meaning now it this is what is talked

about when we talk about the process of

death right in death

first the heat goes the fire element

goes the fire element dissipates

then the air or rather the uh air

element goes then the fire element goes

then the water element goes and then

finally the earth element diminishes

and in that process the other faculties

the sense faculties are broken up

so first the

smell goes

then

the taste goes

then the sight goes then the sense of

touch goes

then the hearing goes and then finally

the mind faculty goes it breaks up at

the breaking up of the body

that's what happens when a person dies

when they are dead

in the case of a beku who has attained

the cessation of perception and feeling

the bodily formation has ceased and

subsided it stopped

the verbal formation has ceased and

subsided the mental formation has ceased

and subsided but his vitality is not

extinguished his physical heat has not

been dissipated and his faculties are

serene or clear

so in other words like i was saying

earlier

when you are in cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness there is still

this

uh vitality there is still this energy

there is still the sixth sense bases

that are dependent upon the vitality

they are serene and clear because

there's no impediments

of sensory data packets going on

now when you are in cessation somebody

might think you're dead

that has happened to me

when i was in the cave and i was in

cessation

my caretaker and my friends saw me in

the cave they tried to take me they

tried to shake me up

right they thought something had

happened

and said they took me back to

his house

and then later on i think they contacted

david and david said don't worry

everything is fine

you know

just wait for another three days like

i'm jesus christ or something

but then yeah

sure enough i came out but then the

problem was at least

when i came back i was expecting myself

to be in the cave

but i saw all of these lights just like

this and i thought and i thought i've

done it now

somehow

i've gone to the

pulse at realms time

i don't think so

they should have been

or maybe the pulse is very very faint if

at all

i would be warm that's true but they

were panicking

yeah yeah

you were resurrected

[Laughter]

next to your body

[Laughter]

yeah just in cessation i i am not dead

i'm just in cessation

yes

oh no

on the third day he rose again

this is the difference between one who

is dead and gone

and a biku who has attained to the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

venerable sir how does emergence from

the cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness come about

householder

when ibiku is emerging from the

attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling unconsciousness it

does not occur to him i will emerge from

the attainment

of the cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness or i am emerging from

the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness or

i have emerged from the attainment of

the cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness but rather his mind has

previously been developed in such a way

that it leads him to such a state

now we're talking about the

predetermined or the determination there

is an intention

right that the mind will emerge

at after a certain point or under

certain conditions

and so

that determination

is made and then the mind goes into

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

and then emerges back that's dependent

upon that

prior determination

is that news

so for example when

we did the scientific testing

right i told the scientists when they

had me all hooked up to those different

that octopus you know on my head

and i said okay you're going to see

something happen in 10 minutes

right it's going to dip down and then

after 90 minutes at the 90 minute mark

something's going to come back up

and exactly at the 10-minute mark

everything ceased and at the 90-minute

mark everything came back up that's

because of prior determination

there was a determination that after 10

minutes

mine goes into cessation

after 10 after 90 minutes

there is the arising

no the eeg diminishes at the 10 minute

mark and then it starts to become more

active again

is elongated or it's yeah

no

because there's still other electrical

activity going on

there's a vitality going on there's a

metabolism going on

that cessation is conditioned by an

intention

the prior determination conditions

the process of cessation to happen

but in cessation there's no conditions

it's a cessation of conditions

themselves

feeling is a condition perception is a

condition

and feeling and perception are both

conditioned as well

that's why when you come out of

cessation now as we'll get into it there

is the

unconditioned the experience of nirvana

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question venerable sir

when a beku is emerging from the

attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

which of these things arise in him first

the bodily formation the verbal

formation or the mental formation

what do you guys think probably in

reverse

householder when a beak was emerging

from the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

first the mental formation arises

after that the bodily formation and

after that the verbal formation

oh wow

[Laughter]

oh what was that

what just happened

and so

saying good venerable sir he then asked

me for the

venerable sir when ebiku has emerged

from the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness how

many kinds of contact touch him

householder

when abiku has emerged from the

attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

three kinds of contact touch him

emptiness contact signless contact

undirected contact

the contact with nibana

that which is signless

no object

that which is undirected no craving

there

that which is empty completely no self

there

this initial contact with the nirvana

element then gives rise to feeling

the feeling of joy and relief the mental

formation arises with

joy and relief

and then the feeling is the joy and

relief is felt in the body

bodily formation and then there's oh wow

the verbal formation

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

when venerable sir when ebiku has

emerged from the attainment of the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness towards what does his mind

slant

slope and incline

householder when ibiku has emerged from

the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling unconsciousness his

mind slants slopes and inclines towards

seclusion

now this is a translation from the word

viveka

in pali

so one idea is seclusion that the mind

wants to be secluded but there's another

translation of viveka which is

discernment or wisdom

discerning the links of dependent

origination

his mind inclines towards seeing

dependent origination

good venerable sir chitta the

householder said

then having delighted and rejoiced in

the venerable kamaboos statement he

asked him a further question

venerable sir how many things are

helpful for the attainment

of the cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness

indeed householder you are asking last

what you should have asked first

but still i will answer you

for the attainment

of the cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness two things are helpful

serenity and insight

questions

that is a smart householder he is yes

oh you had a question first

please

go

i thought ahead the same question i i

was

i remember

once said something like

if someone

even if someone

attained ibana became

the

you know his or her mind would be so

pure that they couldn't stay in the

world anymore they would have to

have to go to you know join a monastery

basically

or uh

you know they had like seven days to do

something like that or they would die or

something like that does that

um

i'm sorry how does that square with this

because it seems like it's if the person

came out of

cessation like if

you know

if cheetah had a

no but stream enters attain nibana too

right

and uh so do saka de games and onigamis

okay so there's never a point where oh

my god my mind is so clear i need to go

seclude myself from

the rest of the world

lose it i mean you completely lose

interest in things like

supporting yourself for example

and so that's why you then go into

the homeless life you go into

becoming a monastic because that's where

you get your requisites

because you just don't have any interest

in doing this or that your mind is

completely

at peace

it's not looking for this or that or

another

and you want to teach and let people

know but then you get supported

you get supported as a teacher or

whatever it might be

yeah samara hats have the analytical

knowledges and samara hats are saying

i'll just mop up the place you know

a solitary arahant

leave me alone just want to be in my

cabin

yeah but feed me just leave it outside

the door

i i never you know i never saw any

indication of that because the buddha

was always oh you're not now okay you go

there right over there

they don't

go away because they're just completely

right okay

and even if they're not inclined to

teach but you ask them a question

because of the experience that they've

had

they'll be able to talk to you from

experience so it'll be like they're

teaching you anywhere

no my question is uh first of all it's

like when we do when do you do this

determination like before the sitting or

you know like

i'm in the full job i'm going to take a

break and do the determination

so i mean the way the exercise the

determination starts off is you start

off with the first shauna then you move

on to the second channel you do certain

kinds of things you get into the first

jhana for a certain time period you come

out of it and you do like micro jhanas

it's like five seconds in that genre and

coming out in 10 seconds and so on you

do that with each of the jhanas

and then you finally do that with

cessation so let's say

these are all preparatory exercises

leading to two words determining if you

can just get into cessation

now i think the traditional

understanding within certain communities

is that you go all the way up to

nothingness

and you come out of nothingness and you

say okay now when i attain neither

perception non-perception then mind will

go into cessation

but you can just go into cessation

just like that

yeah

no oh oh there was two of them

you won't get stuck for more than a few

minutes seconds

oh no no no

but even then if you go into it right

like where you do have an attainment

it's only for like a split second

it's not even for

a couple of seconds it's just like that

yeah you wouldn't even know how long you

were in it for it's just like

it might have been there for a minute or

it might have been there for a split

second

so there's a fear that comes up when

people first experience cessation and

then later on they're like oh what if i

get stuck

but as far as

i know i've never heard of anybody

getting stuck in cessation

they won't even know

the reason i asked that you were

in your episode but you didn't determine

you had sent them you had set your clock

right and i just wondered for someone

who falls into it

oh can you shake them out of it when

they're in it but it would be so brief

that there wouldn't be no point having

to yeah

right you would only notice when you

have that oh wow like oh what just

happened and that was just for that

split moment

yeah it seems that you needed

determination to actually keep to keep

you in it yeah you need a determination

yeah

so for those of you who might be afraid

to go into cessation

don't worry

you're not going to get stuck in it

don't worry we'll hold the funeral for

you

[Laughter]

it'll be great

fireworks fireworks there you go you

won't be there so

they're going to be cheap virus

[Laughter]

so i have a related story that

people might be interested in

at the end of the last retreat a person

came up to me and told me a story about

this

and the person said

this was a great retreat

something prompted this and

i was going in and out this

cessation for

most of the time

and

having

these repeated

experiences

and it was great

there was no concern in that person's

voice whatsoever yeah

and the smile

never left right

i know who you're talking about

yeah

so any more thoughts about you know

say onongo can go into cessation but yet

not attain our hardship

yeah i mean we had a brief discussion

about this a little bit which is uh you

know

i i would say not every cessation

or every nibana experience is going to

result in what would be the best way to

put it it would be like not every

cessation

would result in a path attainment or

fruition attainment it's the nibana

element followed by it

that can result in the breaking of the

feathers or weakening of the fetters but

it seems like when they come in and out

of cessation

they are allowing the mind the ability

to weaken that fetter

right but then the mana experience is

the one that

completely rusts it out

because in that moment of nibana the

mind is utterly pure right it's

completely unfettered completely

untainted for that brief moment of

nirvana

everybody is let's say an arahat because

there's nothing going on it's completely

pure but then

when you hold on to that experience and

say oh that was great i want more of

that the craving arises again or the

identification with it arises again

and so certain feathers are destroyed

like in stream entry we know that this

the federer of self-you

the federer of doubt and the feather of

clinging to rights and rituals are gone

because you've experienced it for

yourself and you realize oh this is an

impersonal process and this is the way

leading to nibbana so i don't have any

more doubt about it and no clinging no

rights and rituals is going to take me

there so there's no longer any clinging

to it

but then there's the weakening of

um

sensual craving and aversion for the

sakuragami so they have an experience of

nibana

and the joy is again there but it might

not be as

that much of a fire works as before it

will still be there the relief will

still be there

but then with the onigami

there's like

there's a lot of equanimity actually

there there's a lot of like balance

there

because now there's no craving going on

but there's

there's joy of the dharma there's

clinging to the dhamma still there

and then with the arahat when the the

contact with the divana element happens

there's no

grasping onto any experience it's just

seeing things as they actually are so

because there's no fuel in the form of

grasping

none of the taints can arise because

those taints will arise dependent upon

fuel

of craving or identification or views or

ignorance or whatever it might be but

that's not no no action when the feeling

arises no action mental verbal or

physical leads to craving for that it's

just seeing things as they are

but completely pure

so nothing fetters it anymore so the

conceit goes away and therefore the

restlessness goes away the craving for

jhana craving for formless states goes

away and obviously

ignorance is destroyed

well it seems like cessation there's you

know it's like

there's a little hum left

nirvana right and there's some sort of

you know it's conditioned right

condition right

you're saying between

cessation and ibana or

after the banner okay so

what is the difference between cessation

cessation is a cessation of all

conditions

the unconditioned state that results

well we can't save results because then

it says it's conditioned but the

nirvana's the the bana

element itself

has no craving in it

it has

no object that it perceives

it's just completely unconditioned but

the cessation

itself is not cond is not unconditioned

it's the

cessation is the process in which all

things cease

and then when everything comes back on

there is the unconditioned

so the unconditioned is there in

cessation

the unconditioned is there

but there's there's contact made once

the emergence from cessation happens

it's another state

right born of cessation right

or to say the neban element was already

there yeah it's just now the contact was

made after the mental formations arose

but isn't it rising due to

the

damachaka seeing the lengths of the

dependent origination

yeah

so in the order of

what we're talking about there's

cessation

then there's contact with nibana

and then there's the seeing of the links

the reason is because we talk about the

contact with the nirvana element that is

to say the first contact that happens

the mental contact then the formations

arise dependent upon that contact and

the formations that arise depending upon

that contact are pure

for that first time they come up that's

why you see whatever it is that you see

but then after that there's the joy and

relief

that joy and relief is conditioned

and that joy and relief if taken and

clung to

results in the re-fettering of the mind

pure formations

void of any craving

i was listening to a talk by uh

and he said a few things about nirvana i

wonder if you'd agree with he said

it's

there's a consciousness but it's not

one of the

he said there's like a con there's

some kind of consciousness there and

some kind of

happiness but it's not a feeling and the

consciousness isn't one of the links

and he also said it's a

technically always right here

it's technically always right right here

but it's not something we've ever

experienced before unless you've gone

through this process

i wonder if he's referring to the follow

some apathy though

that's what i'm wondering

yeah all summer party is one and then

another one is like uh uh in i think

it's come from abu dhabi is always

believe that

you know

all in

here is

in the dark room

the experience of that

well we think about when we're going

through the process of the jaundice

right what we're doing is we're

de-conditioning the mind so we're

removing conditions

it's the cessation of conditions which

include

conditioned feeling and perception

and perception and feeling themselves

being conditions

so that process of cessation is where

all conditions cease

right all feeling all perception all

consciousness dependent upon formations

cease because even in that

uh moment of cessation all sankharas

also cease

which then what's remaining

is the unconditioned because there's

nothing there to condition it that's

just unconditioned

but now you have to be very careful when

you use language like this because then

it's like oh so nirvana is

is like a qua it's it's a substratum

you know that's not the case here what

we're saying is nirvana is the

unconditioned in the sense that there's

no conditions present

which allows the mind then to see

dependent origination as it arises

pure

pure dependent origination that is to

say

formations void of craving

consciousness void of craving namarupa

and then contact so what happens is okay

so what happens is

cessation

contact with the nibanal that's the

first contact that arises that's

unconditioned

then the formations that arise are the

mental formations that allow you to

experience feeling of

joy and relief

then there is the joy and relief that's

felt in the body

bodily formations arise and then there's

like wow what was that that's the verbal

formations right

so now the feeling and the perception of

that is experienced in the first set

of dependent origination

then

when the mind says wow i really like

that inclines to it

then the next set of formations if clung

to

are now fettered again by the craving

for that experience

but if there's no clinging to the dharma

then the formations that do arise are

not rooted in the craving

so in this snap there's like so many

dependent origination cycles going on so

in that moment of contact with nirvana

right the experience of nibana you see

pure dependent origination that is pure

formations pure consciousness and then

the feeling

right as a result of that contact

and then if that feeling is clung to

then there's formations that are rooted

in that clinging

and then you still have some feathers

there some taints there

until you come out everything is

reflective

oh what was that and then

what are these right because

it's so fast that

you know i can't tell this is a new form

right

i mean after you have that attainment

usually the mind is like filled with

pure energy right it's just like

it doesn't want to look back it's just

feeling the joy and the relief

but if you do have an experience like

that it would be useful for you to use

the mind to reflect back on what

happened that way you have better

clarity on

seeing dependent origination you see it

regardless at some point or another but

if you look back you might have better

clarity on what you just saw

a better understanding

no question about some of the mechanics

here so

so two two parts so the first part is

you know from

from where i am now

to the experience of cessation

if you will

i am in the stream of dependent

origination

right i'm rooted in ignorance my

formations are rooted in ignorance my

consciousness my contact followed it

right

so i'm curious

you know where is the free will if you

will you know to

even start making a different choice

because even my contact

is has been shaped and i know we've

we've talked about

um

that at the point of contact or feeling

comes up that's what you can

choose if you will right but it seems

like even making that choice it has to

come from some

prior contact or formation that's

already set and also still part of this

dependent origination stream so that's

the first part so assuming we know we

get through that

i have the experience of cessation i

come out of cessation

and here i'm trying to work out the

answer and i would appreciate you i'm

here so

i come out of cessation

i make contact with uh the banana

element

um

so that's the first contact uh

formations arise

um

if they're pure

you know informations are pure

experience the joy and relief

and if there's craving

right then you kind of

keep going right you have to keep going

like obviously that neuron

so

where does that craving come from and

the reason i ask is because i was

imagining

like dependent origination almost like

the cartoons you're running along and

you go off the cliff

right once you hit cessation you're off

the cliff you're off this causal link

off this causal train i'm now off of

this make contact with the

you know unconditioned

so

there are no

i'm not part of these links how can this

craving still be there and so then i

thought well maybe it's because of the

feathers right the letters are still

there

uh so you have this moment you know

you're in the young condition but at the

end of the day your minds are your your

mind is so feathered so that's where the

craving comes from

but then

for the onigami

they call this a

they don't have craving anymore right so

but the anagami still runs the risk of

coming into contact with ibana and

saying oh the risk of coming in contact

with nevada did you say that

did you say the risk of coming into

contact with nirvana

opportunities the opportunity

do a cost benefit analysis before you do

i really want to do this you know

because i really don't right

but

here

you know they come into contact with

ibana so two cases right the underground

who comes in contact with ivana

you know federers are broken no craving

arises

not even for that experience itself

they're done

but then there's a second anagami who

has that experience but they're still

i mean we can't call it craving because

that feather was released already but

still something holds this person

back to sylvia dhamma where does that

come from now okay

so what we're saying here is you have

contact with nirvana there's the

experience of nirvana

the mind touches nirvana

and then the feeling that arises is

conditioned by that experience right

that's all the joy and relief that you

experience but contact also gives rise

to formations

so when we're talking about dependent

origination right contact is one of

those things that gives rise

to intention gives rise to formations

gives rise to feeling gives rise to

perception and so on and so forth so the

next set of formations that come up

are pure and allow the mental feeling of

joy and relief to happen now dependent

upon that

if the mind grabs onto that feeling of

joy

then the next set of formations as a

result of that choice

will be fettered

but before that all those formations

that arose were unfettered

and what if it doesn't grab onto that

then they will not be fettered

okay and then what happens and then one

is in our

oh so one

so it's either or

right so if there is that clinging to

the dharma which is

there's no lust there

there's no

aversion there but there is

i am experiencing this and i enjoy the

dharma

there is see for the anigami there is

equanimity there

the first joy that you experience as a

stream enter is just

amazing because it's you've never

experienced this joy before

and then eventually then you when you

become an onigami there's actually more

equanimity than joy there there's more

balance there

okay so

let's say the

saktagami

okay there's still

some some joy is there

so then

is it

when that first stream of dependent

origination

comes by

and there isn't

a grasping onto it right

then what

does that person then

so you're saying somebody who attains

anagami

no

yeah

would then become an onigami

there the joy instead is just seen as it

is which is just an impersonal process

it just happens automatically as a

result of continually six houring

so this process of craving or not

craving this process of clinging or not

clinging to it is dependent upon how

much right effort you've applied prior

that's why one keeps saying

that your choices are inclining towards

either craving or not craving depending

upon

how many times you've been mindful

of that and six art it the more you six

are it having that sharp

clear mindfulness

the more automatic your choice is to not

crave for something

so you 6r all the way to our hardship

so

to build up what you're saying you

understand correctly so the challenge

for

for a stream mentor

right hasn't done this long enough right

so they have this experience in the

bottom and experience a drawing belief

they may not even realize that they're

clinging and craving because sometimes

right experience stream entry and don't

know they experienced it so

but they feel so good and they're like

wow i feel amazing

i had this experience this was wonderful

this was awesome

i want to do this again

even though they don't know what it is

so it's just automatic but as they as

they continue up the

you know up the liberation chain

um

the more they the more a person

six hours and starts to incline the

formations towards the wholesome to

incline towards not craving towards

letting go the next time these

experiences happen they're more likely

to not

but that happens automatically right

right so there will be at that moment

they're not choosing anymore it's like

whatever choices you have made previous

right now the fruition of that karma

the intention that you had

is not coming into for into

the the forefront

at that point in time

there's this question of

uh araha had ceased to find an

origination four times monogamy three

times two times

one way to look at it is that in in the

case of a stream enter they see

something but they're not able to fully

comprehend what they saw

but i will say that afterwards a stream

entry can go back to the sutas

and then even in their own daily life

start to see dependent origination like

oh

here is the contact here is the feeling

here is so and so

and then once you get more clarity on

this in the second time around for the

sakuragami you might see more links like

in the case of

ananda

he saw only certain links he didn't see

sixth sense spaces he didn't see

formations he didn't see ignorance

but he saw certain links

in the case of the

sakuragami they would probably have more

clarity on dependent origination so they

might see

those links and kind of even be able to

say oh that was probably the formations

there's an intuition that comes up and

with the anagami it's much clearer

with the arahant it's like they can they

can like it's like

in that moment of seeing

it goes it this is going to sound very

much like science fiction but

it goes beyond kind of the notion of

time

because you're just seeing like almost

in slow motion

or the perception of it is in slow

motion that you're like oh here is the

formation here is the consciousness

here's the namarupa

here's the contact and the sixth sense

basis here's the contact

not only that but with the arhat they

can go backward and see oh

this is where this was this is where

this was so when we talk about the

forward order and the reverse order

the arahat sees that

forward and reverse

upon reflection

so as to one time two times three times

four times

that might happen but

i think experientially not all the time

i mean depending upon people that we've

spoken to probably not all the time

the links themselves are kind of a flow

of experience right so these this

concept we're placing on them that

there's distinct yeah

this is the mind's way of perceiving

what it's what is actually happening

right that's why for some people

formations are seen as dashes or they're

seen as lines or they're seen as circles

or

they're seen as like umbrellas or

whatever it might be just little things

that they see circles and ringlets and

things but that's just the way that that

particular mind

is perceiving or interpreting what is

happening in the flow of dependent

origination

so it's seeing reality as it is

dependent upon how mind perceives it

that's why the buddha says as to that

ananda it's dependent upon their

faculties

so it's almost

if our experience is like a river

right you might think that the worldly

the pituitary

goes there sees the river just kind of

flowing by

but then you get like the noble ones

who'll come and they'll actually be able

to

map out if you will

it links in the stream as as it's

happening and you know each each with

more refinements if you will and then

the the araha will actually

you know i guess like

yeah like for them for so for the stream

enter the entering the stream and the

stream is a little muddy they can see

the rocks and they can see little fish

and they can see little algae or this or

moss or whatever

a little bit but they can't really

catch it it's just like a little muddled

and with the sakuragami they see a

little bit more and then upon reflection

and upon their experience then they're

able to see oh that was the moss oh that

was the rock and everything and with the

anagami it becomes even clearer and with

the arahat they can actually swim

upstream and say oh that was where the

rock is you know exactly this is where

the rock is this is where the moss is

this is where the salmon is this is

where

the whatever it might be

so it just becomes clearer and clearer

and clearer

just to make sure that i was

understanding right but

so like who'da will give different

amount of links and different suits is

so i guess what i was

just confirming is are there clear

delineations between the links

or it seems like

those are just concepts we're placing on

a flow of experience where there's no

clear delineate i mean clearly there is

a distinction between

say feeling and perception but

it seems like

at some point it's arbitrary where we

place the divider lines between

length or what we're calling a link

no there is there is a pretty good

delineation point it's just that as it

becomes clearer you start to see those

delineations

so as you get

deeper and deeper into practice and then

as you get higher and higher attainments

you actually do see oh here is the

contact oh here is the feeling

but however you perceive it is just

dependent upon your faculties but you

have a clear vision of those

delineations

well i think there's some

like you're talking about where he

starts say with consciousness

where he just he doesn't right he says

with consciousness there's namarupa

yeah so but the formation

the formations is missing right

it's his audience he's talking to the

audience like uh

ananda

at that point had been become a stream

enter

so he was not able to delineate where

the ignorance was he was not able to

delineate where the formations were or

this is where the sixth sense bases were

so those three particular

links are not mentioned in dignika 15

which we went through a few days ago

and for the reason being is the buddha

is speaking to what ananda understands

then

at his level i see yeah and then there's

another one where sometimes

the later links are grouped into bigger

categories yes

yes

and then if you go to majaminikayan9 you

have sariputta who goes not even

not only just through all 12 links but

he says even before that there's the

taints

and he says the ignorance is dependent

upon the taints and the teens are

dependent upon the

the

ignorance

an actual link because i feel like it's

not really a link but the setting the

the contamination

of the others i mean

consciousness and formations are really

things

but i feel like ignorance is like the

paint that paints all the other things

it's a condition

right so it's not really

a link

as such as the other endings but it

arises dependent upon the fact that one

is not able to see

and so it

it's seen as a link because it's saying

this is what conditions formations

ignorance

dependent upon ignorance

these formations arise meaning dependent

on the fact that one does not see or

experience or ignores

the four noble truths then certain

formations will arise

because you just don't know i mean a

baby

seeing a flame might put their finger in

the plane but they don't know they don't

know

ignorance

so that's what i was saying i mean

obviously this is not in the sutras but

i'm just terming in this way there's the

mundane ignorance and the super mundane

ignorance the mundane ignorance is that

you don't know that you don't know

right you don't know about the four

noble truths because you've never heard

about them before

but the super mundane is

you've heard about them before but you

don't

remember them

the lack of

right

the consciously incompetent person right

yes six r's are

deconditioning the formations of

ignorance every time you six arm

you are mindful

which means you're remembering to

observe how mind's attention moved

when you do that you're using your

ability to use yoni so many sakara to

see things as they are

that they are they are impermanent

not worth holding on to and therefore

not considered to be self

every time you see it you don't project

upon it you just see it as it actually

is

ignorance starts to

the paint chips away

until

right

the mindfulness enables the yoni so

money sakara yeah otherwise you know

mindfulness alone

wrong mindfulness would be uh i'm eating

i'm paying attention to how i'm eating

right that's wrong mindfulness right

but mindfulness here is like oh the mind

was distracted and it's taking this

personal

but i see this as being impersonal and

letting it go

when you're using right effort which is

the six r's that allows you to be

utilizing right mindfulness

that's why it is in that particular

sequence the eightfold path is in that

particular sequence right effort leads

to right mindfulness right mindfulness

leads to right collectedness

satisfied delighted

let's hear some merit

may suffering ones be suffering free may

the fear struck fearlessly

may the grieving shed all grief and may

all beings find relief

may all beings share this merit that we

have thus acquired for the acquisition

of all kinds of happiness

may beings inhabiting space and earth

devas and nagas of mighty power

share this merit of ours

may they long protect the buddha's

dispensation

saudi

[Music]

you

[Music]

so

[Music]

okay so today we're gonna go over

voidness

or emptiness

and the sign list

before i continue

i have

three suitors i'm going through but

they're all

going to be short

okay

so don't worry

so the first one is majjima nikaya one

two one

chula sunyata suta

the shorter discourse on

voidness

thus have i heard on one occasion the

blessed one was living at savathi in the

eastern park in the palace of nagara's

mother

then when it was evening the venerable

ananda rose from the meditation

went to the blessed one and after paying

homage to him

he sat down at one side and said to the

blessed one

venerable sir on one occasion the

blessed one was living in the sakyan

country

where there is a town of the sakyan's

name nagaraka

there venerable sir i heard and learned

this from the blessed one's own lips

now ananda i often abide in voidness

did i hear that correctly venerable sir

did i learn that correctly

attend to that correctly

remember that correctly

certainly ananda you heard that

correctly

learned that correctly

attended to that correctly

remember that correctly as formerly

ananda so now too

i often abide in voidness

if you recall a couple of days ago we

were talking about the seven types of

people

right

one liberated by wisdom one liberated

both ways and so on and so forth

well there's one more person

the eighth

type of person

and this is known as the anime davihari

there is a suta in i think the angry

nikaya

where the

there is a brahma or a deva named

thisa

who comes down and he talks about these

seven different types of people

and the monk who's listening to him

listens eagerly and then he goes to the

buddha and tells them this is what i was

told

and then the buddha says but did he not

tell you about the eighth type of person

and that is known as the animita vihari

vihari means one who resides one who

abides

and animata is the signless the signless

collectedness of mind

so as we go through the suta we'll

explore what that means

ananda just as this palace of megara's

mother is void of elephants cattle

horses and mares

void of gold and silver

void of the assembly of men and women

and there is present only this

non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

sangha of bhikkhus

so too a beku not attending to the

perception of village

not attending to the perception of

people

attends the singleness dependent on the

perception

of forest

so there's different ways of

understanding voidness voidness is a

synonym for emptiness

you hear about emptiness in different

schools of buddhism and

usually it's understood as empty of self

so emptiness here is equated with anata

but here the buddha is talking about

emptiness in terms of what is void

of a state so here he's saying just as

this place is void of the elephants and

horses and

and so on and so forth so too

a mind can be void of different kinds of

elements

so we'll

we'll explore what that means

his mind enters into that perception of

force and acquires confidence steadiness

and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbance is there might be

dependent on the perception of village

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of people

those are not here

there is only this amount of disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of forest

so when a monk enters the forest it is

void of villages and cities and towns

it is empty of these things it is empty

of people

but there is only this the perception of

the forest

he understands

he understands this field of perception

is void of the perception of village

this field of perception is void of the

perception of people

there is only present this non-voidness

which means that which is there

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of forest thus he regards it

as void of what is not there but as to

what remains there he understands that

which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this is his

genuine undistorted pure descent

into voidness

again ananda

ibiku not attending to the perception of

people

not attending to the perception of

forest

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of earth

his mind enters into that perception of

earth

and acquires confidence steadiness and

resolution

just as a bull's hide becomes free from

folds

when fully stretched with a hundred pegs

so too a beku not attending to any of

the ridges and hollows of this earth

to the rivers and ravines

the tracts of stumps and thorns

the mountains and uneven places

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of earth

so in other words

now he is only perceiving earth perhaps

just the earth element

and so that is void of all of the

different details of the earth element

there is just earth

he understands whatever disturbances

there might be dependent on the

perception of people

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of forest

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of earth

he understands this field of perception

is void of the perception of people

this field of perception is void of the

perception of forest

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of earth

thus he regards it as void

of what is not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted pure descent

into voidness

now

here it's going to talk about infinite

space

so sometimes the interpretation is he

sees the earth element

and then he takes that as a casino

now remember

a few days ago we talked about kasina

coming from the word kritsna

usually it's understood that kasina

means that one becomes one pointed on

that particular disc of the earth

element

but kritsna actually means whole or

expanded

which means he's actually expanding that

perception of earth and now he's going

to experience that expansion in the form

of infinite space

again ananda a beku

not attending to the perception of

forest

not attending to the perception of earth

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception

of the base of infinite space

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of infinite space

and acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of forest

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of earth

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite space

he understands

this field of perception is void of the

perception of forest

this field of perception is void of the

perception of earth

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite space

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

so what is not there is the perception

of force the perception of earth

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present and what is present

the perception of infinite space

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted pure descent into voidness

again

not attending to the base

sorry not attending to the perception of

earth

not attending to the perception of the

base of infinite space

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of infinite consciousness and

acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus whatever

disturbances there might be dependent

on the perception of earth those are not

present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of infinite space

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

he understands this field of perception

is void of the perception of earth this

field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of infinite space

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted pure descent into voidness

so we understand that the base of

infinite consciousness when you perceive

that

it is empty of the perception of the

base of infinite space

what about the first four janus

what's the first jhana empty of what is

it void of

hindrances

what about the second journal

thinking and examining thought

what about the third channel

joy

what about the fourth

happiness

again ananda ibiku not attending to the

perception of the base of infinite space

not attending to the perception of the

base of infinite consciousness

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of the base of

nothingness

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of nothingness and acquires

confidence steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of infinite space

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the base of the sorry on

the perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance namely

the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of

nothingness he understands this field of

perception is void

of the perception of the base of

infinite space

this field of perception is void

of the perception of the base of

infinite consciousness

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of nothingness

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda

this too is his genuine undistorted pure

descent into voidness

again ananda

ebiku

not attending to the perception of the

base of infinite consciousness

not attending to the perception of the

base of nothingness

attends to the singleness dependent on

the perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

try saying that five times

perception of the base of neither

perception or non-perception

his mind enters into that perception of

the base of neither perception or

non-perception and acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbance is there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of infinite consciousness

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of nothingness

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

he understands

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of infinite

consciousness

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of nothingness

there is present only this non-voidness

namely the singleness dependent on the

perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda

this too is his genuine undistorted pure

descent into voidness

again ananda a beku

not attending to the perception of the

base of nothingness

not attending to the perception of the

base of neither perception nor

non-perception

attends to the singleness dependent on

the signless collectedness of mind

his mind enters into that signless

collectedness of mind and acquires

confidence

steadiness and resolution

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of nothingness

those are not present here

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the perception of the base

of neither perception nor non-perception

those are not present here

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely

that connected with the six spaces that

are dependent on this body and

conditioned by life

he understands

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of nothingness

this field of perception is void of the

perception of the base of neither

perception nor non-perception

there is present only this non-voidness

namely that connected with the six bases

that are dependent on this body and

condition by life

thus he regards it as void of what is

not there but as to what remains there

he understands that which is present

thus

this is present

thus ananda this too is his genuine

undistorted

pure descent into voidness

so here the buddha is talking about the

signless collectedness of mind

some of you have experienced this at

some point or another in your meditation

the signless is

much

much subtler than the quiet mind

there comes a point where you are with

quiet mind and there's no vibration

going on at all

but there's this sense of

collectedness around the mind

the mind itself is an object

when we talk about the signless

collectedness of mind

really that comes from the word anamitta

samadhi

anamitta so nimita

which is a sign or an object

and ah which is the non so an objectless

meditation so to speak

what that means is

there comes a point where even the quiet

mind

just fades away and there's just like

blank screen that's there

you're not looking at anything in

particular the mind is just aware

looking past things looking through

things

little things might come up

but as soon as you see them they fade

away and the mind is just completely

purely empty

void of any object

and this is the signless collectedness

of mind

this

mind is so purified

that there are no vibrations happening

the subtlest vibration that happens here

is no is the

is the formation rooted in conceit

the sense of i am the sense of me the

sense of myself

from there there can arise craving there

can arise restlessness they can rise of

they can arise aversion and so on and so

forth

so as soon as you see something you're

no longer in that in the same way as

long as you as soon as you perceive

then you're no longer neither perception

nor non-perception as soon as the mind

takes something as an object

it's no longer in this sign-less

the analogy that i use is it's like you

take a flashlight you switch it on and

you point it to the sky

and when you point to the sky it the

light just goes out into space

but it's not landing on anything

as soon as it lands on something there

is an object there

but because it doesn't land on anything

it is just signless objectless

just pure

observing

not observing anything in particular

just looking

and because eventually

the batteries run out the fuel for that

flashlight runs out

that is to say because there is no more

formations arising because they have

been

relaxed and let go of

and no fuel of attention is being given

to any object in particular

what are their formations or the sense

of i am

or whatever it might be

the battery runs out and the mind's

attention stops

and then one is in cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

so this is a very subtle state

it's not like you have to go there but

this is a state that is accessible

once you get more and more developed in

the practice

once you have certain kinds of

understanding of each of the jhanas

once you have understanding of the quiet

mind and then see the quiet mind itself

as very coarse and let that go now that

happens on its own when the mind becomes

very relaxed and it softens the edges of

the mind softens the edges of

one's attention and awareness and then

that just basically fades away

and there is that pure screen that's

there some people see it as just this

blank screen sometimes it has orange hue

sometimes it has a green hue sometimes

it looks like static

it's just this screen

and nothing in particular

again ananda ibiku not attending to the

perception of the base of nothingness

not attending to the perception of the

base of neither perception nor

non-perception

attends to the singleness dependent on

the signless collectiveness of mind

his mind enters into that signless

collectedness and acquires confidence

steadiness and resolution

his he understands thus

this signless collectedness of mind

is conditioned

and volitionally produced

but whatever is conditioned and

volitionally produced is impermanent

subject to cessation

so even this signless collectedness of

mind

is conditioned

it's not the unconditioned

why is it conditioned because there is

still a sense of observer there

there's a sense of there is still an

awareness there which is conditioned

by contact with the mind

the mind and the sinless state

so it's volitionally produced what does

that mean there is an intention to relax

further and further and further

volitionally produced conditioned by

that intention

but once the mind realizes that even

this

is conditioned and therefore impermanent

subject to cessation the mind loses

complete

interest in even the signless state this

is where disenchantment and dispassion

come into

the purview

here the mind becomes so disenchanted so

dispassionate that it doesn't it's not

interested in any formations at all

not interested in any object at all not

even interested in the awareness of the

signless state of mind

and then

there is cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness

when this happens

when he knows and sees thus

his mind is liberated from the taint of

sensual desire

from the taint of being

and from the taint of ignorance

this happens when the mind makes contact

with the nibana element and there is no

grasping on to the joy and relief that's

felt as a result of

contact with the demand element

therefore no more

taint of sensual desire no more taint of

the craving for existence or of becoming

and no more the taint of ignorance

he understands

when it is liberated there comes the

knowledge it is labor it is liberated he

understands birth is destroyed

the holy life has been lived what had to

be done has been done

there is no more coming to any state of

being

he understands thus

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the taint of sensual desire

those are not present here

what disturbances are there dependent

upon the taint of sensual desire

craving

the link of craving

sensual clinging and so on

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the taint of becoming

those are not present here

what disturbances might those be

clinging to existence craving for

existence

bhava

habitual tendencies

whatever disturbances there might be

dependent on the taint of ignorance

those are not present here

but

yes

tainted formations formations

conditioned by ignorance

ignorance is gone now

there's complete attention and

understanding

of the four noble truths

ignorance is destroyed and what are

disturbances dependent upon that that is

formations rooted in that ignorance

and then further on the lack of

mindfulness when you experience a

feeling all of those disturbances all of

those that are dependent upon

ignorance goes away

there is present only this amount of

disturbance

namely that connected with the six bases

that are dependent on this body and

conditioned by life

he understands thus

this field of perception is void

of the taint of sensual desire now what

he's talking about is that liberated

mind

whatever it's perceiving all the time it

knows that it is empty

of the taint of sensual desire

this field of perception is void of the

taint of becoming it's empty of the

taint of craving for existence

this field of perception is void of the

taint of ignorance it's empty of

ignorance

there is present only this non-voidness

namely that connected with the six and

spaces that are dependent on this body

and conditioned by life

in essence what is remaining is just the

five aggregates

no longer clung to no longer conditioned

by craving

thus he regards the regards it as void

of what is not there

but as to what remains there he

understands that which is present thus

this is present

thus ananda this is his genuine

undistorted pure descent into voidness

supreme and unsurpassed

that's the mind of a liberated being

the mind of an arahat

supreme and unsurpassed

completely empty of all disturbances

of sensual craving

of the desire to become

and of ignorance

whatever recluses and brahmanas

that is to say arahats

in the past entered upon and abided in

pure

supreme unsurpassed voidness

all entered upon and abided in the same

pure supreme unsurpassed voidness

whatever recluses and brahmanas in the

future will enter upon an abiding pure

supreme unsurpassed voidness

all will enter upon and abide in this

same pure supreme unsurpassed voidness

whatever recluses

and brahmanas in the present

enter upon and abide in pure

supreme unsurpassed voidness

all enter upon and abide in this

same

pure supreme unsurpassed voidness

therefore ananda you should train thus

we will enter upon and abide in pure

supreme unsurpassed whiteness

thus you should train yourselves we will

enter into the liberated mind

that is what the blessed one said

the venerable anando was satisfied and

delighted in the blessed one's words

so that's the first sudan

yes

what is this

every step of the way

as opposed to unpure but we'll have a

kind of a

pure in the sense that it's not

um

it's not affected by disturbances

it's just downshift from infinite space

to infinite consciousness

it's just gradual

natural

progression

at each step there was always whatever

disturbance there might be under

previous

concepts these are not here

so just to take infinite consciousness

as an example

so when a person's at an infinite

consciousness whatever disturbances

there might be based on infinite space

here what disturbances would there be

from infinite space the perception of

infinite space

so the perception of the concept of that

the experience of infinite space is not

there in the experience of infinite

consciousness

the experience of infinite consciousness

is not present in the experience of

nothingness

okay so it's not being present it's a

disturbance to the

new stage

basically when you go from infinite

space to infinite consciousness

you're no longer an infinite space

so you're just an infinite consciousness

when you go from infinite consciousness

to nothingness you're just in

nothingness there's no preceding states

of infinite consciousness in nothingness

when you're perceiving

the base of nothingness

so the

so what is the suits are really doing

here

it's starting off with

fourth john

starting out with fort china yeah

right

so he's kind of going backwards through

the whole thing and just letting go so

that's

you know where's before he says well

start first second third yeah

yeah in a sense

so this is just showing you

there's levels of cessation right

so the genres also are levels of

cessation so we yeah so that's what you

can talk about

yeah

so i talked i asked you guys what is uh

what is empty or what is the first genre

empty of

it's the same way of asking what ceases

in the first jhana the hindrances

and in the second jana what ceases is

the vitika vichara and in the third

jhana what ceases is the joy and so on

and so forth so what you're seeing is

these downshifts of the mind so

the the coarser levels of

experience

through the different factors of the

ambience of each of the genres starts to

diminish and cease

yeah it's taking you to the fourth

channel and then

you expand that

and then when you expand that you're now

getting into the experience of

infinite space

there's consciousness so there's feeling

and perceptions

but you're perceiving still you're

perceiving that you're

seeing

you know

it's not nothingness because nothingness

is a perception of that there is nothing

here

but that itself is an object

here the silence is like

the it's like

everything becomes translucent all

objects become translucent it's like

you're seeing through them

rather than looking at them

landing on them

of course

yeah

there's not a rupee even when you're a

cessation of perception feeling in

consciousness if there wasn't

i mean

when we talk about mind and body they

are still present

it says there in the signless state

there is still the sixth sense basis

dependent upon and conditioned by this

life

so the sixth sense bases if they are

still there they're dependent upon

namarupa and so on

it's just that in cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

now that's what we're going to go

through in a bit but cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness the

faculties are said to be clear

the reason is right now when you're

listening to my voice when you're seeing

me when you're experiencing through the

sixth sense basis those are data packets

being received by the sixth sense basis

those are impediments in a sense

but when there's cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness there's

absolutely no activity in the sense

basis

which means

the faculties are clear of the

impediments of these

sensory data packets

so there is a all of the objects the

signs and all of these things

and then for a moment there's no objects

but

perception and consciousness are still

working right

right and then since there's since there

is nothing

yeah there's nothing for it to fuel

to continue it just ceases yeah

so in other words at this point there's

still mental formations

right but verbal formations and bodily

formations have ceased and will

understand as we go through

any other questions

i had a question just about the language

no singleness here is the unification of

mind or it's another way of

understanding the collectedness of mind

there is the collectiveness of mind

the mind is collected around this

perception

okay

yeah non-voidness means that which is

still there okay

i know it's a very interesting way that

they've talked there is this voidness

like the

you know chicken fried chicken there is

this

no so so voidness means empty of

something right so like for example

infinite space or infinite consciousness

is empty of the perception of

infinite space

but there is that which is still present

that's the non-voidness or the

non-emptiness or that which is filled

with

and what is filled the mind is filled

with the perception of infinite

consciousness

right

is that clear

non-void means there's still something

there that's right exactly

i mean if it isn't raining

it's void

right

but there is that non-voidness

namely the sun

you know

[Laughter]

yeah so in the cessation

am i understanding it that then the cars

aren't there or they're suspended

they're suspended they're ceased

okay so the next one the next two are

very short

but they're very interesting and very

deep and subtle so

listen and attend closely

yeah

this is the samytha nikaya 41.7

the godata

now this is actually an extract if you

guys are familiar with

majimenakair43

where sariputta is having that

conversation with maha kotita about the

different aspects of feeling and then

the signless liberation of mind and all

of that this is the same as that

particular section but i'm only going to

talk about this section which is the

extraction from there

oh the page numbers

1325.

on one occasion the venerable godatta

was

dwelling at machi kasunda

in the wild mango grove

then chitta the householder approached

the venerable godatta paid homage to him

and sat down to one side now chitta the

householder he was known to be in

anagami

and he was somebody who knew how to

enter the cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness

he was also somebody who taught the

monks because he was very adept in

meditation so sometimes the buddha would

send him send them to him to talk about

the finer points of how to get into

cessation and so on

the venerable godatta then said to him

as he was sitting to one side

householder the measureless liberation

of mind the liberation of mind by

nothingness

the liberation of mind by emptiness

and the signless liberation of mind

are these things different in meaning

and also different in phrasing

or are they one in meaning and different

only in phrasing

there is a method venerable sir by which

these things are different in meaning

and also different in phrasing

and there is a method by which they are

one in meaning and different only in

phrasing

and what venerable sir

is the method by which these things are

different in meaning and also different

in phrasing

here ibiku dwells pervading one quarter

with the mind imbued with

loving-kindness

likewise the second quarter the third

quarter and the fourth quarter thus

above below across and everywhere and to

all as to himself

he dwells pervading the entire world

with the mind imbued with loving

kindness

exalted vast measureless without

hostility without ill will

does that sound familiar

he dwells pervading one quarter with the

mind imbued with compassion and so on

with the mind imbued with altruistic joy

with the mind imbued with equanimity

likewise the second quarter the third

quarter and the fourth quarter thus

above below across and everywhere and to

all as to himself

he dwells pervading the entire world

with a mind imbued with equanimity or

altruistic joy or compassion

vast exalted measureless without

hostility without ill will

this is called the measureless

liberation of mind

now there's a way in which they use the

word liberation

that means the

liberation of mind which is liberated by

the taints and the liberation of the

mind where the hindrances are no longer

present which is in china

so right now what they're talking about

in terms of the measure measureless

liberation of mind

is that mind which is imbued with loving

kindness or any of the brahma viharas

and radiates it outward

and what venerable sir is the liberation

of mind by nothingness

here by completely transcending the base

of the infinity of consciousness

aware that there is nothing a beak who

enters and dwells in the base of

nothingness

this is called the liberation of mind by

nothingness

pretty straightforward

and what venerable sir is a liberation

of mind by emptiness

here a biku gone to the forest or to the

foot of a tree or to an empty hut

reflects thus

empty is this of self

or of what belongs to self

this is called the liberation of mind by

emptiness

now

if i remember correctly bonte talked

about a practice that he did

where he would actually look back and

see where did this thought arise right

whose thought is this

and he started to see the emptiness of

self of these thoughts

emptiness of self of this body and so on

and so in that process one enters the

emptiness liberation of mind

liberation in the sense that it is void

of any of the hindrances one is just

experiencing

anata there

and what venerable sir is the signless

liberation of mind

here with non-attention to all signs

when we say signs that say object

non-attention to all objects

a bike who enters and dwells into

the signless collectedness of mind this

is called the signless liberation of

mind

this venerable sir is the method by

which these things

are different in meaning and also

different in phrasing

and what venerable sir is the method by

which these things are one in meaning

and different only in phrasing

so now we're talking about the

measureless liberation of mind the

liberation of mind by nothingness

the emptiness liberation of mind and the

signless liberation of mind they're

different words different adjectives

that mean the same thing now as follows

all right

lust venerable sir

is a maker of measurement

hatred is a maker of measurement

delusion is a maker of measurement in

other words when there is greed present

when there is hatred present when there

is delusion present there is a comparing

going on a measuring going on and that

is conceit mana

another word from mana is to measure

that is to compare

i am greater than this or he is better

than me

and so on so forth

for one whose taints are destroyed

these have been abandoned cut off at the

root

made like palm stumps obliterated so

that they are no more subject to future

arising

to whatever extent they there are

measureless measureless

liberations of mind the unshakable

liberation of mind is declared the chief

among them

now that unshakable liberation of mind

is empty of lust empty of hatred

empty of delusion

so this is referring to a liberated mind

a mind liberated from the taints

lost venerable sir is a something hatred

is a something

delusion is a something

so when we say that what we're saying is

lust

is a

concept

greed is a concept delusion is a concept

it's creates something in the mind it

creates a sense of this is me this is

mine this is myself

for one whose taints are destroyed

these have been abandoned cut off at the

root

made like palm stumps

obliterated so that they are no more

subject to future arising

to whatever extent there are liberations

of mind by nothingness the unshakable

liberation of mind is declared the chief

among them

that unshakeable liberation of mind is

empty of lust

empty of hatred

empty of delusion

lust venerable sir is a maker of science

hatred is a maker of science delusion is

a maker of science

so objects

objects of repulsion objects of

attraction objects of identification

when there's greed hatred or delusion

there is a sense of this is mine

this is me this is myself

and so i don't like this

there's a sense of there is that that i

don't like there's a sense of there is

that which i like there is sense of i am

that

and so when there is greed there is a

craving for something

when there is hatred there is an

aversion for something when there is

delusion there is a

identification with something and that's

something being an object of one's

desire one's aversion or one's

identification

for one whose taints are destroyed

these have been abandoned

cut off at the root

made like palm stumps obliterated so

that they are no longer subject

to future arising

to whatever extent there are sign less

liberations of mind so there is a

signless collectedness of mind where

there is no object but there is still

the sense of conceit that might arise

until there isn't

the unshakable liberation of mind that

which is free of the taints is declare

the chief among them

now that unshakeable liberation of mind

is empty of lust

empty of hatred

empty of delusion

this venerable ser is the method by

which these things are one in meaning

and different only in phrasing

it is again for you householder it is

well gained by you householder in that

you have the eye of wisdom that ranges

over the deep word of the buddha

that sounds like

yeah

is it 44 or 43

44

oh

well

yeah

well the next truth that we're going to

do is actually

sounds like it's an it's an extract

either from 43 or 44 as well

you'll see what i mean

any questions before we continue

right

yeah

that's the only way you can compare that

oh yeah he's taller than i am

you know

yeah so

they're the same in meaning of different

phrasing to the same meaning insofar as

they're referring

they're all destroyed

no they're all referring to

the mind of a liberated

they're different than meaning because

you have okay so you have for example

the measureless liberation of mind here

liberation is a temporary liberation

because it's liberated from hindrances

when you're radiating love and kindness

compassion joy or equanimity there's no

hindrances there so in that sense it's

liberated

when you are in

nothingness there's no hindrances there

in that sense you're liberated

when you see anatha

the emptiness of self in all things

conditioned

and unconditioned too then there is

that emptiness liberation of mind

because there's no hindrances there when

you're in the signless state

there's no hindrances there in that

sense you're liberated from them

so that's how they are different in

meaning and different in phrasing

but when they're one in meaning they're

all pointing to that liberation of mind

which is liberated from the taints

liberation

but when they're the same meanings and

phrasing you're pointing to the

liberation of mine from all things

different in name is referring to

or different in meaning

and different in phrasing is referring

to the different kinds of liberation

different types of liberation different

categories of liberation

there is the category of the measureless

liberation when you are in infinite

space you're sending out loving kindness

compassion joy i mean in any of the

formless attainments

when it says that he transcends

the base of infinite consciousness he is

liberated by nothingness meaning now

he's in nothingness

that's the liberation of mind

it's a category of a liberation of mind

and then when he sees the anata

the not-self of every experience

that is a category of liberation of mind

and when he's in signless

collectedness of mind he's in a category

of liberation

but when we talk about the ultimate

liberation

there's different ways you could call

that

ultimate liberation by different ways

because of the fact that they are free

of the taints because the taints

create the sense of comparison create

the sense of something there create the

sense of an object

and so in that sense

they have different names for it

depending upon how you see it but

they're all referring to the same thing

in the second

section

the first part

they're

pointing to a liberated mind but in the

context of

liberation from instances right

temporary liberation

right meditative states

right and the second part

that's the mind that's just completely

free

it's 43 no

yes

oh the dhamma eye right the i always oh

no it's the

is it the eye of dhamma or the

uh

like the eyes like the

is it

oh there's the eye that that's there's

the divine eye

there's the eye of the dharma there's

the

this eye

and then what else

the eye of panya the eye of insight and

so on

but the eye of dhamma would be one that

sees dependent origination one who

unders that which understands dependent

origination

yeah let's read that again it says here

it is again for your householder it is

well gained by you householder in that

you have the eye of wisdom that ranges

over the deep word of the buddha

so here it's

the eye of wisdom or i say i would say

the eye of insight the ability to

penetrate the dharma

and be able to explain it in a certain

way

not necessarily right in a sense he has

the analytical knowledges yeah

but before

no see

before

arises it said that the eye of wisdom

right

yes

yeah

or you could say the eye of wisdom

awakens the dhamma chakra the eye of

dhamma yeah

this is i think panyaca which is the eye

of insight

yeah okay

yes it's awakened because one sees

one sees dependent origination at that

point

yes

keep looking

you're not ignoring them

you're not ignoring them you're aware

that they're there but as soon as your

eyes go your eye of attention goes there

it's like now you're looking at

something

you're looking at a sign

but if you're just

seeing through it as being translucent

then the attention doesn't get

fueled by that particular formation

right allow them to just

and then they will go because there's no

attention given to them it's like in the

very seeing of it it's going to start to

fuel further formations

but the mind automatically just lets go

of them at this point it's just relaxing

them

but as soon as you engage with them now

the attention tightens around it and now

you're no longer in the silence because

you're taking it as an object

so

so is it like i'm looking in your

direction

and i mean i could see a little bit of

crew

chairs or something like that but

i would just keep looking in this

direction

i mean they're there because they're

there but the second i

actually turned to him now he's like a

full-blown

object so it's the coon-less

collectedness of mine

[Laughter]

did i get it right

that you said lust hate and delusion

are concepts

or they create concepts

[Laughter]

it's all it's all it's an all

all matrix

it's the matrix

that's all it is

it's the coding

there you go that's all you got to do

everybody has to just change the name to

neo and now you are the one

okay

moving on

this is sami nikaya 41.6

page

1322.

this is known as the kamabu suta

on one occasion the venerable kamabu was

dwelling at machi kasanda in the wild

mango grove

then chitta the householder approached

the venerable kamabu paid homage to him

sat down to one side and said to him

vulnerable sir how many kinds of

formations are there

now chitta already knows all of this but

he's just having a dialogue with kamabu

there are householder three kinds of

formations the bodily formation

the verbal formation and the mental

formation

good venerable sir chitta the

householder

said so he's acknowledging him okay you

know your stuff good

then having delighted and rejoiced in

the venerable kamaboos statement

he asked him a further question

but venerable sir what is the bodily

formation what is the verbal formation

what is the mental formation

in breathing and out breathing

householder are the bodily formation

so inhalation and exhalation are one

component of the bodily formation there

are other aspects of the bodily

formations when you tighten your arm

what is what are you doing

bodily formations allow you to tighten

your fist bodily formations allow you to

walk they allow you to breathe they

allow you to do other kinds of functions

within the body

but for whatever reason it's only

mentioning inhalation and exhalation and

we'll talk about that a little further

thought and examination are the verbal

formation

so the initial application of thought

or when you are listening to someone and

you start to engage with them

and

speak before you speak there is a

process in your mind

which starts to formulate what you're

going to say and how you're going to

express it

the verbal formations allow that process

to happen

or facilitate that process

perception and feeling are the mental

formations so the way you perceive

things the way you actually experience

everything is dependent upon mental

formations

good venerable sir chitta the

householder said then he asked him a

further question

but venerable sir why are in breathing

and out breathing the bodily formation

why are thought and examination the

verbal formation

why our perception and feeling of mental

formation

householder in breathing and out

breathing are bodily these things are

dependent upon the body

that is why in breathing and out

breathing are the bodily formation

first one thinks and examines

then afterwards one breaks into speech

so what you're calculating what you're

going to say

that is why thought and examination are

the verbal formation

perception and feeling are mental

these things are dependent upon the mind

that is why perception and feeling are

the mental formation

even if you're seeing through the five

physical senses

you're i mean experiencing through the

five physical senses whatever you're

seeing

it's an image created in the mind

whatever you're hearing is an

interpretation of

uh vibrations in the air picked up by

the ear and then interpreted by the mind

whatever you're tasting smelling feeling

with your body all of that is being

interpreted by the mind and therefore

these are all mental

ultimately they are mental that's why in

infinite consciousness even though your

eyes are not active

even though your ears are not active and

you still hear flickers that's happening

on a mental level

because everything

mind is chief mind is the forerunner

this is what it is

everything you're experiencing

ultimately

is interpreted or experienced by the

mind

and this is why they're called mental

formation

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question venerable sir how

does the attainment of the cessation of

perception and feeling and consciousness

come about

householder

when a beku is attaining the cessation

of perception feeling and consciousness

it does not occur to him i will attain

the cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness or i am attaining the

perception the cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness

or i have attained the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness but

rather

his mind has previously been developed

in such a way

that it leads him to such a state

what is that process of development of

mind

six hours going through janus yes

so in other words you cannot intend to

go into cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness until you become a

nanagami or an arab but that's a

different case altogether

but in terms of the attainment there's

one is the attainment and one is the

determination of going into it when

we're talking about the attainment of

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

what we're talking about is how does the

mind experience it how does the mind

go into cessation

right it happens not because you

intended instead

you are letting go

through the six-hour process

letting go of coarser formations that

arise in the form of hindrances

hindrances are nothing but just

collected formations the formation

starts off as a little snowflake and it

drops on the ground and picks up and

turns into a snowball and then

ultimately becomes into this giant

snowball which is the hindrance

so you're letting go of those

and as you get into quiet mind now

you're dealing with little snowflakes

you're melting them away with the six

r's right letting them go

and so you're ceasing certain formations

bodily formation verbal formations

bodily formations and mental formations

and this is how the process of cessation

happens

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

venerable sir

when ebiku is attaining the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

which of these things cease first

ceases first in him the bodily formation

the verbal formation or the mental

formation

what do you guys think

buddy

householder when abiku is attaining the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

first the verbal formation ceases

then the bodily formation ceases then

the mental formations why

right first in jhana the first jhana

there's no speaking going on when you

sit down for meditation no speaking

going on

you have the intention to bring up

loving kindness that's the thinking and

examining thought

but then in the second genre that ceases

now you have self-confidence and

meditation is flowing

so now the verbal formations cease there

yes you can perceive that there is this

here there is that here there is this

here but that's not verbal even though

it might sound like it's verbal it's

perceiving its perception dependent upon

mental formations

now the bodily formation cease when you

get into the fourth channel

because now you're starting to lose

contact with the body and now it's all

going into a mental state now for

whatever reason people have said over

the ages

that

in the fourth jhana breathing ceases

then all dead people are in the fourth

jhana

but what's going on here is that the

mind becomes so calm so collected

that the body becomes so relaxed

that the breathing becomes almost

imperceptible

right

so it's not just the in breathing and

out breathing it's the all bodily

formations related to

the feeling in the body

you might still feel contact when it

comes to a fly landing on your skin and

stuff but otherwise you're not paying

attention to that at all and if you're

not paying attention to that at all

no bodily formations are arising

what about mental formations

when do they cease

in cessation

because mental formations

give rise to feeling and perception when

there is a cessation of feeling

perception and consciousness

that's the cessation of mental

formations

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

venerable sir what is the difference

between one who is dead and gone

and a beaker who has attained the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

householder in the case of one who is

dead and gone

the bodily formation has ceased and

subsided

ceased

and

never to return again

the verbal formation has ceased and

subsided

the mental formation has ceased and

subsided

his vitality is extinguished

his physical heat has been dissipated

and his faculties are fully broken up

his vitality this is the ayu sankharas

vitality that which provides

the life in the body the energy in the

body

is physical heat the heat is dependent

upon the vitality and the vitality is

dependent upon the heat

right

so when there is heat in the body there

is life

and the heat arises dependent upon the

life in the body

so i put that gives an interesting

uh

analogy for this an interesting image he

talks about the flame

right the heat of the flame is there and

there is the vibrance of the flame the

radiance of the flame

that is dependent upon the heat

and so on

so

that heat

is basically the metabolism of the body

that continues

that's still there in cessation as we'll

see vitality is still there faculties

are still there but here the faculties

are broken up

meaning now it this is what is talked

about when we talk about the process of

death right in death

first the heat goes the fire element

goes the fire element dissipates

then the air or rather the uh air

element goes then the fire element goes

then the water element goes and then

finally the earth element diminishes

and in that process the other faculties

the sense faculties are broken up

so first the

smell goes

then

the taste goes

then the sight goes then the sense of

touch goes

then the hearing goes and then finally

the mind faculty goes it breaks up at

the breaking up of the body

that's what happens when a person dies

when they are dead

in the case of a beku who has attained

the cessation of perception and feeling

the bodily formation has ceased and

subsided it stopped

the verbal formation has ceased and

subsided the mental formation has ceased

and subsided but his vitality is not

extinguished his physical heat has not

been dissipated and his faculties are

serene or clear

so in other words like i was saying

earlier

when you are in cessation of perception

feeling and consciousness there is still

this

uh vitality there is still this energy

there is still the sixth sense bases

that are dependent upon the vitality

they are serene and clear because

there's no impediments

of sensory data packets going on

now when you are in cessation somebody

might think you're dead

that has happened to me

when i was in the cave and i was in

cessation

my caretaker and my friends saw me in

the cave they tried to take me they

tried to shake me up

right they thought something had

happened

and said they took me back to

his house

and then later on i think they contacted

david and david said don't worry

everything is fine

you know

just wait for another three days like

i'm jesus christ or something

but then yeah

sure enough i came out but then the

problem was at least

when i came back i was expecting myself

to be in the cave

but i saw all of these lights just like

this and i thought and i thought i've

done it now

somehow

i've gone to the

pulse at realms time

i don't think so

they should have been

or maybe the pulse is very very faint if

at all

i would be warm that's true but they

were panicking

yeah yeah

you were resurrected

[Laughter]

next to your body

[Laughter]

yeah just in cessation i i am not dead

i'm just in cessation

yes

oh no

on the third day he rose again

this is the difference between one who

is dead and gone

and a biku who has attained to the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

venerable sir how does emergence from

the cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness come about

householder

when ibiku is emerging from the

attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling unconsciousness it

does not occur to him i will emerge from

the attainment

of the cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness or i am emerging from

the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness or

i have emerged from the attainment of

the cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness but rather his mind has

previously been developed in such a way

that it leads him to such a state

now we're talking about the

predetermined or the determination there

is an intention

right that the mind will emerge

at after a certain point or under

certain conditions

and so

that determination

is made and then the mind goes into

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness

and then emerges back that's dependent

upon that

prior determination

is that news

so for example when

we did the scientific testing

right i told the scientists when they

had me all hooked up to those different

that octopus you know on my head

and i said okay you're going to see

something happen in 10 minutes

right it's going to dip down and then

after 90 minutes at the 90 minute mark

something's going to come back up

and exactly at the 10-minute mark

everything ceased and at the 90-minute

mark everything came back up that's

because of prior determination

there was a determination that after 10

minutes

mine goes into cessation

after 10 after 90 minutes

there is the arising

no the eeg diminishes at the 10 minute

mark and then it starts to become more

active again

is elongated or it's yeah

no

because there's still other electrical

activity going on

there's a vitality going on there's a

metabolism going on

that cessation is conditioned by an

intention

the prior determination conditions

the process of cessation to happen

but in cessation there's no conditions

it's a cessation of conditions

themselves

feeling is a condition perception is a

condition

and feeling and perception are both

conditioned as well

that's why when you come out of

cessation now as we'll get into it there

is the

unconditioned the experience of nirvana

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question venerable sir

when a beku is emerging from the

attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

which of these things arise in him first

the bodily formation the verbal

formation or the mental formation

what do you guys think probably in

reverse

householder when a beak was emerging

from the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

first the mental formation arises

after that the bodily formation and

after that the verbal formation

oh wow

[Laughter]

oh what was that

what just happened

and so

saying good venerable sir he then asked

me for the

venerable sir when ebiku has emerged

from the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness how

many kinds of contact touch him

householder

when abiku has emerged from the

attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness

three kinds of contact touch him

emptiness contact signless contact

undirected contact

the contact with nibana

that which is signless

no object

that which is undirected no craving

there

that which is empty completely no self

there

this initial contact with the nirvana

element then gives rise to feeling

the feeling of joy and relief the mental

formation arises with

joy and relief

and then the feeling is the joy and

relief is felt in the body

bodily formation and then there's oh wow

the verbal formation

saying good venerable sir he then asked

him a further question

when venerable sir when ebiku has

emerged from the attainment of the

cessation of perception feeling and

consciousness towards what does his mind

slant

slope and incline

householder when ibiku has emerged from

the attainment of the cessation of

perception feeling unconsciousness his

mind slants slopes and inclines towards

seclusion

now this is a translation from the word

viveka

in pali

so one idea is seclusion that the mind

wants to be secluded but there's another

translation of viveka which is

discernment or wisdom

discerning the links of dependent

origination

his mind inclines towards seeing

dependent origination

good venerable sir chitta the

householder said

then having delighted and rejoiced in

the venerable kamaboos statement he

asked him a further question

venerable sir how many things are

helpful for the attainment

of the cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness

indeed householder you are asking last

what you should have asked first

but still i will answer you

for the attainment

of the cessation of perception feeling

and consciousness two things are helpful

serenity and insight

questions

that is a smart householder he is yes

oh you had a question first

please

go

i thought ahead the same question i i

was

i remember

once said something like

if someone

even if someone

attained ibana became

the

you know his or her mind would be so

pure that they couldn't stay in the

world anymore they would have to

have to go to you know join a monastery

basically

or uh

you know they had like seven days to do

something like that or they would die or

something like that does that

um

i'm sorry how does that square with this

because it seems like it's if the person

came out of

cessation like if

you know

if cheetah had a

no but stream enters attain nibana too

right

and uh so do saka de games and onigamis

okay so there's never a point where oh

my god my mind is so clear i need to go

seclude myself from

the rest of the world

lose it i mean you completely lose

interest in things like

supporting yourself for example

and so that's why you then go into

the homeless life you go into

becoming a monastic because that's where

you get your requisites

because you just don't have any interest

in doing this or that your mind is

completely

at peace

it's not looking for this or that or

another

and you want to teach and let people

know but then you get supported

you get supported as a teacher or

whatever it might be

yeah samara hats have the analytical

knowledges and samara hats are saying

i'll just mop up the place you know

a solitary arahant

leave me alone just want to be in my

cabin

yeah but feed me just leave it outside

the door

i i never you know i never saw any

indication of that because the buddha

was always oh you're not now okay you go

there right over there

they don't

go away because they're just completely

right okay

and even if they're not inclined to

teach but you ask them a question

because of the experience that they've

had

they'll be able to talk to you from

experience so it'll be like they're

teaching you anywhere

no my question is uh first of all it's

like when we do when do you do this

determination like before the sitting or

you know like

i'm in the full job i'm going to take a

break and do the determination

so i mean the way the exercise the

determination starts off is you start

off with the first shauna then you move

on to the second channel you do certain

kinds of things you get into the first

jhana for a certain time period you come

out of it and you do like micro jhanas

it's like five seconds in that genre and

coming out in 10 seconds and so on you

do that with each of the jhanas

and then you finally do that with

cessation so let's say

these are all preparatory exercises

leading to two words determining if you

can just get into cessation

now i think the traditional

understanding within certain communities

is that you go all the way up to

nothingness

and you come out of nothingness and you

say okay now when i attain neither

perception non-perception then mind will

go into cessation

but you can just go into cessation

just like that

yeah

no oh oh there was two of them

you won't get stuck for more than a few

minutes seconds

oh no no no

but even then if you go into it right

like where you do have an attainment

it's only for like a split second

it's not even for

a couple of seconds it's just like that

yeah you wouldn't even know how long you

were in it for it's just like

it might have been there for a minute or

it might have been there for a split

second

so there's a fear that comes up when

people first experience cessation and

then later on they're like oh what if i

get stuck

but as far as

i know i've never heard of anybody

getting stuck in cessation

they won't even know

the reason i asked that you were

in your episode but you didn't determine

you had sent them you had set your clock

right and i just wondered for someone

who falls into it

oh can you shake them out of it when

they're in it but it would be so brief

that there wouldn't be no point having

to yeah

right you would only notice when you

have that oh wow like oh what just

happened and that was just for that

split moment

yeah it seems that you needed

determination to actually keep to keep

you in it yeah you need a determination

yeah

so for those of you who might be afraid

to go into cessation

don't worry

you're not going to get stuck in it

don't worry we'll hold the funeral for

you

[Laughter]

it'll be great

fireworks fireworks there you go you

won't be there so

they're going to be cheap virus

[Laughter]

so i have a related story that

people might be interested in

at the end of the last retreat a person