From: https://youtube.com/watch?v=yoNYNAkaZN0
Context: Throughout this transcript, Bhante Vimalaramsi is the speaker unless otherwise indicated.
hello my name is David Johnson and I'm
here with bond TV Miller Ramsey he
studied history at the University of San
Diego
he became a Buddhist monk in Thailand in
1986 and has been in the robes ever
since he's trained in Thailand Burma and
Sri Lanka he's done many many retreats
in the Mohave SIA doctrine but now has
found his own path that has taken him
back to the teachings found in the suit
ISM selves
he teaches retreats at his Missouri
Center in the US and conducts retreats
in Asia and around the world he's the
author of many books including his major
book on meditation life is meditation
meditation is life we'll be doing a
number of interviews so we won't cover
everything in this one discussion this
will be I believe the second one of a
number of them to come we'll move into
other areas and I also have a number of
questions from social media that have
been submitted major subject in Buddhism
because it's on everybody's minds and
that is the topic of mindfulness and
what is mindfulness what is mindfulness
according to the Buddha's teaching now
they're using the word mindfulness in a
lot of different with a lot of different
definitions but with the Buddha's
teaching and his meditation mindfulness
is remembering to observe how mind's
attention moves from one thing to
another
when your mind is on your object of
meditation and there's a distraction
mindfulness is the thing that shows you
how your attention moved we don't care
about why we want to know how attention
moves from one thing to another when you
look at it this way you start looking
more deeply at how the links of
dependent origination actually work so
it's a real important thing to
understand that there's an awful lot of
talk about mindfulness but when we're
talking about mindfulness with Buddhist
meditation it has a different definition
and I'm real big on giving definitions
because there's so many
misunderstandings that are occurring
right now now isn't the pali word for
mindfulness sati yes it is and what does
that really mean
what is the difference between sati
versus what is being taught in the very
many mindfulness courses today
well the mindfulness courses today are
teaching about psychological things
which isn't bad but it doesn't help to
use those kind of definitions when
you're learning about meditation it's
real important to understand that
Buddhist terminology can be a lot
different than a regular dictionary
terminology and if you look it up in the
dictionary mindfulness says it's just
awareness but if you use this definition
of remembering to observe how my mind's
attention moves from one thing to
another you're going to look at things
more deeply so the way that mindfulness
is being used right now by an awful lot
of people is not wrong but it's not the
same as the mindfulness that the Buddha
taught can you explain how it is being
taught today well it's just being taught
surface ly about
how to be aware of things when they
arise part of the problem with just
using it as awareness is that there is
no deep understanding of the importance
of being able to see craving to
recognize what craving is how to
recognize what craving is how to let go
of that craving when they're using just
mindfulness as a word it doesn't
incorporate all of the things that the
Buddha was talking about for example if
you're mindful of your breath aren't you
watching your breath at the belly going
in and out and focusing concentrating on
a nostril tip now one of the things with
the instructions in the suit does is it
doesn't tell you to focus on your breath
it says you understand when you take a
long breath and when you take a short
breath you know when you're breathing it
doesn't mention nostril tip it doesn't
mention upper lip it doesn't mention the
movement of the abdomen it just says you
understand when you take a long breath
and when you take a short breath and you
understand when your breath is being
very coarse and very subtle you
understand that means you know you know
by simple observation so you're not
drilling down into that sensation to
really pick it apart see what it looks
like
right
one of the things that's being taught
today is that there's a difference
between straight Vipassana meditation
and jhana
practice which doesn't agree with what
it says in the suit is almost everyone
is practicing focusing on the breath and
when you use the word focus you want to
see the start of the in-breath the
middle of the in-breath the ending of
the in-breath the pause in between and
then you do the same with the out-breath
but that is not according to the suitors
that is according to commentaries
sometimes I use commentaries but I use
them when they agree with what it says
in the soup does and that's a big
difference another thing in the
instructions it says he trains thus now
you're getting to the actual meditation
when he trains thus that means this is
what you're training yourself to be
mindful of how does this happen
the important thing to understand in
this next section is it's not talking
about the over focus of the breath it's
talking about the entire body not the
body of breath but the body the physical
body okay this is this is the brain and
there is a membrane that goes around
each lobe that is called the meninges
the meninges is basically a bag that
holds the brain together every time you
have a thought every time you have a
feeling arise every time there is a
sensation brain expands a little bit and
causes tension and tightness to arise in
your head when you're using mindfulness
correctly you're seeing for yourself how
this process works what happens first
you recognize that your mind is not with
the breath at that time how did that
happen what happened first what happened
after that what happened after that
next you follow the instructions which
is part of right effort which is a very
important part of the Eightfold Path in
right effort you recognize that your
mind is distracted the second part is
that you release the distraction you
don't keep your attention on the
distraction and you relax the tightness
caused by that distraction
what is the tightness the tightness is
that tightness in your head and the
meninges goes all the way down your
spine so this is experiencing the entire
body okay and there's tightness --is
that can happen all over your body but
it starts from the meninges being around
the spinal cord and around the brain
now craving is an interesting thing in
that it is the I like it
I don't like it mind okay
a pleasant feeling arises I like it I
want it to stay it's a good feeling a
painful feeling arises I don't like it I
want it to stop this is the very
beginning of craving now when you're
learning how to let go of the craving
then you see how this process is working
with your mindfulness how it works
we don't care why we don't care about
the substance of the thought or feeling
what we do care about is the tightness
that happens around your head around
your mind or in your mind so I have a
question for you why can't we just
ignore that tightness I mean many
meditation teachers they teach the
breath and they say if a thought comes
up just ignore it and get your mind back
to your your object of meditation
because you're not recognizing that
craving that is there and you're not
letting it go this leads to a different
kind of jhana wait a minute you're
saying that there's two types of jhana
absolutely the first kind of jhana I
call one pointed sometimes they call it
absorption that includes Konica Samadhi
vu pajara Samadhi and apana Samadhi why
does it include these three different
kinds of concentration it is because
there is no letting go of the craving
the thing that you hear a lot about now
I've been doing meditation for over 40
years I have a lot of friends that have
been doing meditation through that long
or even longer and they don't recognize
that craving now what happens is that
the force of the concentration that
one-pointed kind of concentration the
force of that concentration is so strong
that it suppresses the hindrances while
you're in the jhana it doesn't make the
hindrance go away
when you lose your concentration and you
get back to your daily life you don't
see any real personality development I
hear a lot about people that have been
practicing for many years they still
have fear they still have anger they
aren't purifying their mind because
they're not letting go of the craving
they're not recognizing the craving now
I've done probably somewhere around 12
three-month retreats with the mozzie
style meditation I did an eight month
retreat at Mojave Center I did it to
year retreat at Chami I ate in Burma who
was teaching my Aussie style meditation
when I was doing walking meditation I
always had tension and tightness in my
head and I would go to the teacher and I
would say I have this tightness and he
would say ignore it it's nothing so he
was encouraging me to do a type of
one-pointed concentration what is that
where is that tightness coming from from
gravy is that because you were trying
too hard or it's all right all of them
simply trying or yeah and and trying to
on the surface tell yourself this isn't
me this isn't mine but you're not
letting go of the cause of this
suffering you're trying to push that
that searing way you're trying to
control these distractions right and
who's trying to control them well which
one's is you is that the distraction is
you or the controller that's what I'm
really
well the whole thing is if you don't let
go of craving it is craving that is the
controller it is the watt for them
something to be a little bit different
than it is and that gets into clinging
and really identifying with this stuff
but when you start using right effort
the next part of right effort after you
relax is that you see your mind is clear
your mind is bright your awareness is
very agile and your mind is pure why is
it pure because you have let go of the
craving now the next part of right
effort it says to bring up something
wholesome what I teach is that I want
you to have a light mind so I teach you
to smile and I get criticized for
teaching and smiling but that is a
wholesome state and it's okay to bring
up that wholesome state and right after
you smile you bring that pure mind that
doesn't have any craving or clinging in
it back to your object of meditation if
it's the breath then you come back to
the breath on the in-breath it says to
relax that tightness in your head in
your mind this is the second or the the
fourth part of the instruction it says
literally to tranquilize the bodily
formation and how do you tranquilize
your bar
in formation by letting go of the
craving that tranquilizes all the way
down your back and it tranquilizes your
entire body the last part is to stay
with your object of meditation for as
long as you can now almost everybody
that's teaching meditation as far as I
know in this country and I don't know
everything that's being taught so I
don't even pretend to know what's
happening is your mind is on your object
of meditation it gets distracted then
some methods say well just watch it
until it goes away and then immediately
come back to your what they call a
primary object of meditation now that
sounds like noting that sounds like
noting noting yes that's okay practice
of noting things as they come up and
staying with them until they go away but
that doesn't agree with the right effort
and what if it doesn't go away what if
there's a loud sound and it goes all day
then what do you do well I had that
experience when I was in Burma I was at
Changi 8 and they decided it was time to
drill a well right outside the
Meditation Center and they had this old
engine that was running the the drill
and it was real loud I ignored it I
ignored the sound after a while it
wasn't a big deal it was only sound but
people that are practicing one-pointed
concentration what happens is if they
hear any kind of a sound it makes a
boink
it makes them shocked and they don't
like it so they get into their dislike
of that situation and they've lost their
meditation when they do that they're not
following following the instructions and
the meditation a sound is just a sound
that's what I had to come up with I mean
it was there it was really there and it
lasted until about 6 o'clock in the
evening and then there was about a half
an hour break Burma being Burma I was
time for the tea shops to come out and
they had loud speakers that were playing
music no I know there were some people
that were complaining about all the
sounds and that sort of thing they left
oh I have to be where it's quiet I did a
retreat in New Mexico and it was 95
degrees in the meditation hall and they
wanted to turn the fan off because it
made too much noise
is that true mindfulness are they seeing
how this arises or are they judging and
condemning sound because it's there is
that the practice of the Buddha no it's
only a sound so what you're saying is
that when is that instead of the sound
they should be paying attention to the
the upset mind that it's coming up the
dislike and to relax into that right and
I've been teaching meditation for a long
long time
and when I have students that come to me
that have been doing other practices the
first thing I have to get them to do is
stop trying so hard stop trying to force
things to be as perfect as you want them
to be that doesn't work and there's
craving in it when your meditation is
going the way the Buddha teaches what
happens is that sound is there and
you'll hear it
but it doesn't make your mind
wiggle it doesn't make your mind run to
it and have this dislike it's only as
sound what's the difference between a
sound Innosight well it's a different
sense story that's the only difference
so when you handle distractions like
that this you're saying leads to a
different kind of jhana yes absolutely
what and what kind of jhana is that it's
a concentration jhana that is very very
similar to some of the commentaries
where they divide jhana practice with
the Apostle ah they put that division in
there to make it two separate kinds of
practice that doesn't agree with the
suit does at all
there's a lot of ideas that have been
springing up in the last 20 years or 30
years in the meditation itself that you
can do the jhana practice and when you
come out then you do the Vipassana and
then you can become awakened but I
haven't met anybody that has truly
become awakened with that practice yeah
I've heard it I've read that but I've
never read anything you're right where
anybody has actually been successful
with that right but let's get back to
that there's two types of jhana
what is the jhana that you're proposing
exists that seems to be nobody seems to
know about it
well an awful lot of people do know
about it and they're very successful but
your students yes the thing is with one
pointed concentration because it's
pushing the hindrances down the
entrances will always come up if you're
noting it until it goes away it's gonna
still come up with your daily activities
there is no real personality development
with one pointed concentration and as I
said I've done a lot of different kinds
of meditation I do understand one
pointed concentration very well I do
understand Vipassana very well but the
end result of those practices does not
agree with what the Buddha's teachings
and this is why an awful lot of my
friends that have been meditating for a
long time they keep meditating in the
same way and they keep getting the same
end result which doesn't lead to a
happier mind a mind that's more
accepting of things as they arise it's
not letting go of that craving mind and
this is why people talk about hitting a
wall I went to one talk that somebody
gave and this woman said I've been doing
meditation for 10 years straight
Vipassana when am I gonna see less
suffering and the answer for the student
was well you have to grin and bear it
it'll happen in its own time what kind
of an answer is that
when you practice by putting this one
extra step into your practice of
relaxing that tension and tightness
you're purifying your mind and there is
personality change so what do you call
these Jonah's that you're teaching I
mean I've heard like Jonah heavy Jonah
well I don't they're they're still
talking about one-pointed concentrations
and they're talking about this mm-hmm
what I'm doing is teaching what the suit
does say and we're calling it tranquil
wisdom insight meditation twin twelve
okay because there are insights they're
not the same as the Vipassana insights
now for instance you're going to go
deeper faster with this kind of
meditation than with any other kind of
meditation you've run across now you
have to understand during the time of
the Buddha he had to come up with a kind
of meditation that worked worked quickly
and there was change that was happening
with personalities and it's a very
important aspect that if you just add if
you want to keep doing straight
Vipassana add that relax step and you'll
see the changes that start to happen
this one step that's being ignored and
it was ignored by maja see Siyad I was
ignored by venerable Lucille Ananda it
was ignored by venerable Syed you Jonica
they just they didn't understand what it
was talking about because they were
spending so much time with their
abhidhamma and their commentaries that
they didn't delve deep into the suit
this even today when you go to say sri
lanka where they have monk universities
they have three semesters if that's what
they call them i don't remember of
studying the Vasudha maha and one class
of studying suta's and that includes
almost exclusively this Aarti putana
Souta
so they really don't get a grasp of what
the buddha is teaching because they're
spending so much time with other things
but let me ask let's go back to Jonas in
the on Apollo Souter it's very clearly
identifies eight different levels of
jonah now are those not concentration
jhanas or what kind of John and our
constant what does the word jhana mean
anyway well almost everybody says jhana
means concentration that's what it means
by my studies I found out that jhana
means a level of your understanding
understanding what how to remember how
mine's attention work moves from one
thing to another and that happens while
you're in the jhana you're not
exclusively on one point only and
because of that your awareness is much
sharper of things when they first start
to arise and you can see that relax let
it be purify your mind and continue on
now does your breath stop when this
happens that the fourth jhana you know
and you don't hear anything and all that
sort of thing no you can these jhanas
you have all of the sense doors but when
you get to the fourth jhana you don't
have sensation in your body but you
still have the sense doors and the only
time the sense door arises is when there
is some kind of contact
what is contact well for instance you're
sitting and an ant starts walking across
your arm you would feel that but it
doesn't make your mind shake and go to
it
you recognize that it's there and you
let it be and not not do anything with
it and it's the same with sound when
there's a sound and an in inevitably
there's it doesn't matter where you
practice you're gonna have sounds but it
doesn't make your mind shake and go to
it you did sound just kind of goes
through you okay yeah I know it was
there so that going to it isn't that it
must be craving itself wanting to hear
that sound well it's not it's not I want
to hear a sound it arises because of
feeling arose first first there was
contact then there was feeling then
there's craving and it's not like you
are doing any of these things this is
how the process works and this process
is called dependent origination that's
why I said in the last interview that
dependent origination is the backbone of
the Buddha's teaching and this is how
all of this stuff arises and it arises
on its own it's impersonal you don't ask
a sound to come up a sound comes up when
the conditions are right for it to come
up what you do with what arises in the
present dictates what happens in the
future if you don't like that sound you
start thinking about the stories about
how you don't like it and you're
involved in the emotional upset now
you're completely away from your object
of meditation you haven't practiced your
mindfulness because you're taking it all
personally another one I have a friend
that's been practicing for a long
and when he first started practicing he
had a problem with fear arising he
started to be a teacher and he was
afraid when he was giving Dhamma talks
he was very shy of that he still has
that fear to this day now does that mean
that he's purifying his mind is he
letting go of that fear and not
identifying with it or is he trying a
psychological approach of well it's
there and it's okay for it to be there
but and it bothers me a little bit but
I'm not gonna get involved with it
the Buddha's practice is about purifying
your mind now do you need Jonas to
purify your mind I mean why maja societÃ
says you don't need to practice any sort
of Jonas they take way too long the Maya
see cited up practice jhana
really he did he did practice jhana and
he was actually pretty good at it and he
did get some psychic abilities along
with it although I've always heard that
you're not supposed to be attached to
Jonas they're too blissful well it is
blissful and you can get attached to it
but you don't have to what you do with
what arises in the present dictates what
happens in the future when you take it
personally and you like it and you want
it to stay around and you get real
involved with it you're not being
mindful you're not seeing how the
process works you're attached to the
process there in lies a lot of suffering
we're supposed to be getting rid of
suffering not just grinning and Barrett
we're supposed to let it be let it go
and the way you do that
is by relaxing the tension and tightness
in your head in your mind because right
after that your mind becomes very pure
your mind becomes very alert and there's
no distraction in your mind now some
people are trying to teach well there's
no such a thing as a distraction all you
have to do is watch all of this stuff
well there is a distraction because
you're still taking it personally
you're still identifying with it you're
not letting it be in letting go of that
attachment to it you're just kind of
suppressing it for a while until it
comes up again and that's with anger
that's with anxiety that's with sadness
that's with whatever arises if you just
watch it enough and you say well there's
nothing to it and it's not mine really
you're suppressing seeing the Dhamma the
truth is when these things arise they're
there what are you gonna do with it if
you're gonna fight with it if you're
gonna try to control it if you're gonna
try to make it be something different
than it is you're fighting with the
Dhamma the truth of the present moment
and I shouldn't say present moment
because it doesn't say that in the suit
does but it's an old habit I got into
the truth of the present when you allow
the present moment to be without getting
involved with it
you allow it to be you smile lighten
your mind come back to your object to
meditation you're gonna stay with your
object of meditation for a longer period
of dying and you're gonna see for
yourself a lot of insights into how mind
works well I think that's a good place
to stop
thank you Bunty vimla Ramsey for your
time and I hope people have gotten a
little bit out of this discussion and
we'll have a few more in the coming
weeks
you
hello my name is David Johnson and I'm
here with bond TV Miller Ramsey he
studied history at the University of San
Diego
he became a Buddhist monk in Thailand in
1986 and has been in the robes ever
since he's trained in Thailand Burma and
Sri Lanka he's done many many retreats
in the Mohave SIA doctrine but now has
found his own path that has taken him
back to the teachings found in the suit
ISM selves
he teaches retreats at his Missouri
Center in the US and conducts retreats
in Asia and around the world he's the
author of many books including his major
book on meditation life is meditation
meditation is life we'll be doing a
number of interviews so we won't cover
everything in this one discussion this
will be I believe the second one of a
number of them to come we'll move into
other areas and I also have a number of
questions from social media that have
been submitted major subject in Buddhism
because it's on everybody's minds and
that is the topic of mindfulness and
what is mindfulness what is mindfulness
according to the Buddha's teaching now
they're using the word mindfulness in a
lot of different with a lot of different
definitions but with the Buddha's
teaching and his meditation mindfulness
is remembering to observe how mind's
attention moves from one thing to
another
when your mind is on your object of
meditation and there's a distraction
mindfulness is the thing that shows you
how your attention moved we don't care
about why we want to know how attention
moves from one thing to another when you
look at it this way you start looking
more deeply at how the links of
dependent origination actually work so
it's a real important thing to
understand that there's an awful lot of
talk about mindfulness but when we're
talking about mindfulness with Buddhist
meditation it has a different definition
and I'm real big on giving definitions
because there's so many
misunderstandings that are occurring
right now now isn't the pali word for
mindfulness sati yes it is and what does
that really mean
what is the difference between sati
versus what is being taught in the very
many mindfulness courses today
well the mindfulness courses today are
teaching about psychological things
which isn't bad but it doesn't help to
use those kind of definitions when
you're learning about meditation it's
real important to understand that
Buddhist terminology can be a lot
different than a regular dictionary
terminology and if you look it up in the
dictionary mindfulness says it's just
awareness but if you use this definition
of remembering to observe how my mind's
attention moves from one thing to
another you're going to look at things
more deeply so the way that mindfulness
is being used right now by an awful lot
of people is not wrong but it's not the
same as the mindfulness that the Buddha
taught can you explain how it is being
taught today well it's just being taught
surface ly about
how to be aware of things when they
arise part of the problem with just
using it as awareness is that there is
no deep understanding of the importance
of being able to see craving to
recognize what craving is how to
recognize what craving is how to let go
of that craving when they're using just
mindfulness as a word it doesn't
incorporate all of the things that the
Buddha was talking about for example if
you're mindful of your breath aren't you
watching your breath at the belly going
in and out and focusing concentrating on
a nostril tip now one of the things with
the instructions in the suit does is it
doesn't tell you to focus on your breath
it says you understand when you take a
long breath and when you take a short
breath you know when you're breathing it
doesn't mention nostril tip it doesn't
mention upper lip it doesn't mention the
movement of the abdomen it just says you
understand when you take a long breath
and when you take a short breath and you
understand when your breath is being
very coarse and very subtle you
understand that means you know you know
by simple observation so you're not
drilling down into that sensation to
really pick it apart see what it looks
like
right
one of the things that's being taught
today is that there's a difference
between straight Vipassana meditation
and jhana
practice which doesn't agree with what
it says in the suit is almost everyone
is practicing focusing on the breath and
when you use the word focus you want to
see the start of the in-breath the
middle of the in-breath the ending of
the in-breath the pause in between and
then you do the same with the out-breath
but that is not according to the suitors
that is according to commentaries
sometimes I use commentaries but I use
them when they agree with what it says
in the soup does and that's a big
difference another thing in the
instructions it says he trains thus now
you're getting to the actual meditation
when he trains thus that means this is
what you're training yourself to be
mindful of how does this happen
the important thing to understand in
this next section is it's not talking
about the over focus of the breath it's
talking about the entire body not the
body of breath but the body the physical
body okay this is this is the brain and
there is a membrane that goes around
each lobe that is called the meninges
the meninges is basically a bag that
holds the brain together every time you
have a thought every time you have a
feeling arise every time there is a
sensation brain expands a little bit and
causes tension and tightness to arise in
your head when you're using mindfulness
correctly you're seeing for yourself how
this process works what happens first
you recognize that your mind is not with
the breath at that time how did that
happen what happened first what happened
after that what happened after that
next you follow the instructions which
is part of right effort which is a very
important part of the Eightfold Path in
right effort you recognize that your
mind is distracted the second part is
that you release the distraction you
don't keep your attention on the
distraction and you relax the tightness
caused by that distraction
what is the tightness the tightness is
that tightness in your head and the
meninges goes all the way down your
spine so this is experiencing the entire
body okay and there's tightness --is
that can happen all over your body but
it starts from the meninges being around
the spinal cord and around the brain
now craving is an interesting thing in
that it is the I like it
I don't like it mind okay
a pleasant feeling arises I like it I
want it to stay it's a good feeling a
painful feeling arises I don't like it I
want it to stop this is the very
beginning of craving now when you're
learning how to let go of the craving
then you see how this process is working
with your mindfulness how it works
we don't care why we don't care about
the substance of the thought or feeling
what we do care about is the tightness
that happens around your head around
your mind or in your mind so I have a
question for you why can't we just
ignore that tightness I mean many
meditation teachers they teach the
breath and they say if a thought comes
up just ignore it and get your mind back
to your your object of meditation
because you're not recognizing that
craving that is there and you're not
letting it go this leads to a different
kind of jhana wait a minute you're
saying that there's two types of jhana
absolutely the first kind of jhana I
call one pointed sometimes they call it
absorption that includes Konica Samadhi
vu pajara Samadhi and apana Samadhi why
does it include these three different
kinds of concentration it is because
there is no letting go of the craving
the thing that you hear a lot about now
I've been doing meditation for over 40
years I have a lot of friends that have
been doing meditation through that long
or even longer and they don't recognize
that craving now what happens is that
the force of the concentration that
one-pointed kind of concentration the
force of that concentration is so strong
that it suppresses the hindrances while
you're in the jhana it doesn't make the
hindrance go away
when you lose your concentration and you
get back to your daily life you don't
see any real personality development I
hear a lot about people that have been
practicing for many years they still
have fear they still have anger they
aren't purifying their mind because
they're not letting go of the craving
they're not recognizing the craving now
I've done probably somewhere around 12
three-month retreats with the mozzie
style meditation I did an eight month
retreat at Mojave Center I did it to
year retreat at Chami I ate in Burma who
was teaching my Aussie style meditation
when I was doing walking meditation I
always had tension and tightness in my
head and I would go to the teacher and I
would say I have this tightness and he
would say ignore it it's nothing so he
was encouraging me to do a type of
one-pointed concentration what is that
where is that tightness coming from from
gravy is that because you were trying
too hard or it's all right all of them
simply trying or yeah and and trying to
on the surface tell yourself this isn't
me this isn't mine but you're not
letting go of the cause of this
suffering you're trying to push that
that searing way you're trying to
control these distractions right and
who's trying to control them well which
one's is you is that the distraction is
you or the controller that's what I'm
really
well the whole thing is if you don't let
go of craving it is craving that is the
controller it is the watt for them
something to be a little bit different
than it is and that gets into clinging
and really identifying with this stuff
but when you start using right effort
the next part of right effort after you
relax is that you see your mind is clear
your mind is bright your awareness is
very agile and your mind is pure why is
it pure because you have let go of the
craving now the next part of right
effort it says to bring up something
wholesome what I teach is that I want
you to have a light mind so I teach you
to smile and I get criticized for
teaching and smiling but that is a
wholesome state and it's okay to bring
up that wholesome state and right after
you smile you bring that pure mind that
doesn't have any craving or clinging in
it back to your object of meditation if
it's the breath then you come back to
the breath on the in-breath it says to
relax that tightness in your head in
your mind this is the second or the the
fourth part of the instruction it says
literally to tranquilize the bodily
formation and how do you tranquilize
your bar
in formation by letting go of the
craving that tranquilizes all the way
down your back and it tranquilizes your
entire body the last part is to stay
with your object of meditation for as
long as you can now almost everybody
that's teaching meditation as far as I
know in this country and I don't know
everything that's being taught so I
don't even pretend to know what's
happening is your mind is on your object
of meditation it gets distracted then
some methods say well just watch it
until it goes away and then immediately
come back to your what they call a
primary object of meditation now that
sounds like noting that sounds like
noting noting yes that's okay practice
of noting things as they come up and
staying with them until they go away but
that doesn't agree with the right effort
and what if it doesn't go away what if
there's a loud sound and it goes all day
then what do you do well I had that
experience when I was in Burma I was at
Changi 8 and they decided it was time to
drill a well right outside the
Meditation Center and they had this old
engine that was running the the drill
and it was real loud I ignored it I
ignored the sound after a while it
wasn't a big deal it was only sound but
people that are practicing one-pointed
concentration what happens is if they
hear any kind of a sound it makes a
boink
it makes them shocked and they don't
like it so they get into their dislike
of that situation and they've lost their
meditation when they do that they're not
following following the instructions and
the meditation a sound is just a sound
that's what I had to come up with I mean
it was there it was really there and it
lasted until about 6 o'clock in the
evening and then there was about a half
an hour break Burma being Burma I was
time for the tea shops to come out and
they had loud speakers that were playing
music no I know there were some people
that were complaining about all the
sounds and that sort of thing they left
oh I have to be where it's quiet I did a
retreat in New Mexico and it was 95
degrees in the meditation hall and they
wanted to turn the fan off because it
made too much noise
is that true mindfulness are they seeing
how this arises or are they judging and
condemning sound because it's there is
that the practice of the Buddha no it's
only a sound so what you're saying is
that when is that instead of the sound
they should be paying attention to the
the upset mind that it's coming up the
dislike and to relax into that right and
I've been teaching meditation for a long
long time
and when I have students that come to me
that have been doing other practices the
first thing I have to get them to do is
stop trying so hard stop trying to force
things to be as perfect as you want them
to be that doesn't work and there's
craving in it when your meditation is
going the way the Buddha teaches what
happens is that sound is there and
you'll hear it
but it doesn't make your mind
wiggle it doesn't make your mind run to
it and have this dislike it's only as
sound what's the difference between a
sound Innosight well it's a different
sense story that's the only difference
so when you handle distractions like
that this you're saying leads to a
different kind of jhana yes absolutely
what and what kind of jhana is that it's
a concentration jhana that is very very
similar to some of the commentaries
where they divide jhana practice with
the Apostle ah they put that division in
there to make it two separate kinds of
practice that doesn't agree with the
suit does at all
there's a lot of ideas that have been
springing up in the last 20 years or 30
years in the meditation itself that you
can do the jhana practice and when you
come out then you do the Vipassana and
then you can become awakened but I
haven't met anybody that has truly
become awakened with that practice yeah
I've heard it I've read that but I've
never read anything you're right where
anybody has actually been successful
with that right but let's get back to
that there's two types of jhana
what is the jhana that you're proposing
exists that seems to be nobody seems to
know about it
well an awful lot of people do know
about it and they're very successful but
your students yes the thing is with one
pointed concentration because it's
pushing the hindrances down the
entrances will always come up if you're
noting it until it goes away it's gonna
still come up with your daily activities
there is no real personality development
with one pointed concentration and as I
said I've done a lot of different kinds
of meditation I do understand one
pointed concentration very well I do
understand Vipassana very well but the
end result of those practices does not
agree with what the Buddha's teachings
and this is why an awful lot of my
friends that have been meditating for a
long time they keep meditating in the
same way and they keep getting the same
end result which doesn't lead to a
happier mind a mind that's more
accepting of things as they arise it's
not letting go of that craving mind and
this is why people talk about hitting a
wall I went to one talk that somebody
gave and this woman said I've been doing
meditation for 10 years straight
Vipassana when am I gonna see less
suffering and the answer for the student
was well you have to grin and bear it
it'll happen in its own time what kind
of an answer is that
when you practice by putting this one
extra step into your practice of
relaxing that tension and tightness
you're purifying your mind and there is
personality change so what do you call
these Jonah's that you're teaching I
mean I've heard like Jonah heavy Jonah
well I don't they're they're still
talking about one-pointed concentrations
and they're talking about this mm-hmm
what I'm doing is teaching what the suit
does say and we're calling it tranquil
wisdom insight meditation twin twelve
okay because there are insights they're
not the same as the Vipassana insights
now for instance you're going to go
deeper faster with this kind of
meditation than with any other kind of
meditation you've run across now you
have to understand during the time of
the Buddha he had to come up with a kind
of meditation that worked worked quickly
and there was change that was happening
with personalities and it's a very
important aspect that if you just add if
you want to keep doing straight
Vipassana add that relax step and you'll
see the changes that start to happen
this one step that's being ignored and
it was ignored by maja see Siyad I was
ignored by venerable Lucille Ananda it
was ignored by venerable Syed you Jonica
they just they didn't understand what it
was talking about because they were
spending so much time with their
abhidhamma and their commentaries that
they didn't delve deep into the suit
this even today when you go to say sri
lanka where they have monk universities
they have three semesters if that's what
they call them i don't remember of
studying the Vasudha maha and one class
of studying suta's and that includes
almost exclusively this Aarti putana
Souta
so they really don't get a grasp of what
the buddha is teaching because they're
spending so much time with other things
but let me ask let's go back to Jonas in
the on Apollo Souter it's very clearly
identifies eight different levels of
jonah now are those not concentration
jhanas or what kind of John and our
constant what does the word jhana mean
anyway well almost everybody says jhana
means concentration that's what it means
by my studies I found out that jhana
means a level of your understanding
understanding what how to remember how
mine's attention work moves from one
thing to another and that happens while
you're in the jhana you're not
exclusively on one point only and
because of that your awareness is much
sharper of things when they first start
to arise and you can see that relax let
it be purify your mind and continue on
now does your breath stop when this
happens that the fourth jhana you know
and you don't hear anything and all that
sort of thing no you can these jhanas
you have all of the sense doors but when
you get to the fourth jhana you don't
have sensation in your body but you
still have the sense doors and the only
time the sense door arises is when there
is some kind of contact
what is contact well for instance you're
sitting and an ant starts walking across
your arm you would feel that but it
doesn't make your mind shake and go to
it
you recognize that it's there and you
let it be and not not do anything with
it and it's the same with sound when
there's a sound and an in inevitably
there's it doesn't matter where you
practice you're gonna have sounds but it
doesn't make your mind shake and go to
it you did sound just kind of goes
through you okay yeah I know it was
there so that going to it isn't that it
must be craving itself wanting to hear
that sound well it's not it's not I want
to hear a sound it arises because of
feeling arose first first there was
contact then there was feeling then
there's craving and it's not like you
are doing any of these things this is
how the process works and this process
is called dependent origination that's
why I said in the last interview that
dependent origination is the backbone of
the Buddha's teaching and this is how
all of this stuff arises and it arises
on its own it's impersonal you don't ask
a sound to come up a sound comes up when
the conditions are right for it to come
up what you do with what arises in the
present dictates what happens in the
future if you don't like that sound you
start thinking about the stories about
how you don't like it and you're
involved in the emotional upset now
you're completely away from your object
of meditation you haven't practiced your
mindfulness because you're taking it all
personally another one I have a friend
that's been practicing for a long
and when he first started practicing he
had a problem with fear arising he
started to be a teacher and he was
afraid when he was giving Dhamma talks
he was very shy of that he still has
that fear to this day now does that mean
that he's purifying his mind is he
letting go of that fear and not
identifying with it or is he trying a
psychological approach of well it's
there and it's okay for it to be there
but and it bothers me a little bit but
I'm not gonna get involved with it
the Buddha's practice is about purifying
your mind now do you need Jonas to
purify your mind I mean why maja societÃ
says you don't need to practice any sort
of Jonas they take way too long the Maya
see cited up practice jhana
really he did he did practice jhana and
he was actually pretty good at it and he
did get some psychic abilities along
with it although I've always heard that
you're not supposed to be attached to
Jonas they're too blissful well it is
blissful and you can get attached to it
but you don't have to what you do with
what arises in the present dictates what
happens in the future when you take it
personally and you like it and you want
it to stay around and you get real
involved with it you're not being
mindful you're not seeing how the
process works you're attached to the
process there in lies a lot of suffering
we're supposed to be getting rid of
suffering not just grinning and Barrett
we're supposed to let it be let it go
and the way you do that
is by relaxing the tension and tightness
in your head in your mind because right
after that your mind becomes very pure
your mind becomes very alert and there's
no distraction in your mind now some
people are trying to teach well there's
no such a thing as a distraction all you
have to do is watch all of this stuff
well there is a distraction because
you're still taking it personally
you're still identifying with it you're
not letting it be in letting go of that
attachment to it you're just kind of
suppressing it for a while until it
comes up again and that's with anger
that's with anxiety that's with sadness
that's with whatever arises if you just
watch it enough and you say well there's
nothing to it and it's not mine really
you're suppressing seeing the Dhamma the
truth is when these things arise they're
there what are you gonna do with it if
you're gonna fight with it if you're
gonna try to control it if you're gonna
try to make it be something different
than it is you're fighting with the
Dhamma the truth of the present moment
and I shouldn't say present moment
because it doesn't say that in the suit
does but it's an old habit I got into
the truth of the present when you allow
the present moment to be without getting
involved with it
you allow it to be you smile lighten
your mind come back to your object to
meditation you're gonna stay with your
object of meditation for a longer period
of dying and you're gonna see for
yourself a lot of insights into how mind
works well I think that's a good place
to stop
thank you Bunty vimla Ramsey for your
time and I hope people have gotten a
little bit out of this discussion and
we'll have a few more in the coming
weeks
you