From: https://youtube.com/watch?v=27o4FH39A0E

Context: Throughout this transcript, Bhante Vimalaramsi is the speaker unless otherwise indicated.

hi i'm mehta nanda a salmonera monk here

at damasuke meditation center

and today i'm lucky to be joined by

delson armstrong who's a friend a

meditation teacher

he's leading retreats all around the

world and a very experienced yogi and

meditator

he's actually been collaborating with

elite neuroscience labs

all over the world in amsterdam and soon

in harvard at harvard and

he's um

actually in in this episode we'll have a

cool visual demonstration

of delson's brain waves using the muse

which is the consumer

eeg which basically is a headband

as

you'll see soon that can measure

delson's brain while he meditates

and most recently delson is the author

of a book called titled a mind without

craving

so delson welcome to the welcome to the

show thanks for being here thanks for

having me good to be here

so i think that'll be a good place to

start with the title of your book a mind

without craving

what does that mean

yeah mind without cravings so when we

talk about a mind without craving

what we're saying is it's a mind that's

happy all the time

and the reason i say that is because if

you look at it from the context of the

practice that we do here

we're looking at it from what's known as

the four noble truths which is suffering

the cause of suffering the

cessation of suffering and the way

leading to the cessation of suffering

and a mind without craving is the third

noble truth which is the cessation of

any kind of suffering which means you

cease the craving

and when we talk about craving craving

is basically that mind that grasps at

something

from a sense of self

it says i like it or i don't like it or

i am it

and it manifests as tightness and

tension in the head

and in the body

so a mind without craving is basically a

mind that has no mental suffering at all

it will still feel pain it will still

feel bodily pain it will still feel

bodily discomfort

it'll still have unpleasant feelings

but there won't be any mental agitation

because of it

so there won't be any grasping there

won't be any kind of reactivity to it

and so that mind without craving is

basically a mind

that is relaxed all the time that has

relief all the time and is happy all the

time

beautiful i mean this sounds like

something that

we would all want and uh i think it's

kind of radical what you're saying

because

most people don't realize that's even a

possibility i mean it's just kind of

accepted that part of the human

condition is that there's this perpetual

cycle of kind of dissatisfaction and

then striving to get something in the

future that might make us happy

experiencing some joy here and there but

really

looking for things a lot of the time and

the meditation traditions

have

traditionally this big promise that you

can have a mind without suffering

but i don't think a lot of people even

realize that's possible

so how did this come about for you if

you're able to just kind of

walk us through like

the last kind of cognitive shifts that

occurred for you

when doing the meditation practice

right so first we should understand that

when we talk about this meditation

practice what really differentiates it

from other meditative practices

the majority of meditation practices

is that there is what's known as

the relaxed step so the way to apply the

meditation

is basically observing

an object of meditation

and you remain collected in that object

of meditation

when your mind gets distracted when your

mind moves away from it you use the six

hours and at the heart of that is what's

known as relax

so very briefly put the six hours is

recognizing when you got distracted

releasing attention from it relaxing any

tightness and tension that's the craving

or agitation

coming back to a smile to uplift the

mind and returning back to your objects

yeah and the six is repeat

so that was the application of effort

that i did so it was very relaxed very

open very spacious in terms of the

mindset and the awareness

because of that my mind was able to

actually get really deep into the

practice

and in a very relaxed manner

there comes a point in the meditation

for everyone where there is a really

uh

wonderful joyful cognitive shift that

happens

and this happens when the mind first

completely shuts off as war there's no

consciousness there there's no awareness

there

and when it comes back online there is

this rush

of joy and relief that is experienced

and as a result when you come out of the

meditation and you look around you

everything seems very hyper vivid

it's everything is much cleaner as it

were there's no impediments

you know before you see a tree and yeah

you see it's a tree that's great but

after this cognitive shift you look at

the tree and you actually see each and

every detail of the leaf of that tree

and the bark of that tree or each blade

of grass

or each curvature of clouds in the sky

you know it's very hyper

detailed

and the way i look at that the way i

understand it is that the mind in that

in that time has let go a lot of craving

let go of a lot of suffering

so there's no more of this filtration

system or the filter as it were has been

cleaned up

yeah so you can see reality as it

actually is

amazing so

um

you know the

the way you describe this in your book i

think is pretty beautiful

you say the mind of an arhat which is

someone who's fully awakened

is completely free from all concepts

when he or she experiences reality as it

is through the sixth sense basis so this

is the five senses and then also the

mind

consciousness feeling and perception all

these processes are completely empty

completely void they're empty of any

conceit of i me or mine when an arhat

experiences reality there is no

conceptual proliferation that arises

from any perception that arises it is

being experienced in that moment through

the sense and the sense faculties

their consciousness the awareness is

still functional but it is void of any

sense of self

so this no self experience

or not self experience is

also commonly talked about in different

meditation traditions

but i think it's a very confusing one

for people because they just look down

at their body and they think it's pretty

obvious that there's a self here

so

what is that actually mean

experientially to not feel like anything

is self

yeah

so when we talk about self and not self

or no self but it's really not self

which is you understand that everything

is just empty of any kind of

personal self

you realize that everything is a process

or a series of processes that are just

causes and conditions to bring about

that

experience here for someone who becomes

fully awakened

they experience the world in such a way

that there is no more as it's written

there conceptual proliferation

or mental proliferation

so we could take the example of a

chocolate cake

right somebody somebody who's not fully

awakened or not awakened at all looks at

chocolate cake and there can be all of

these ideas around that chocolate cake

like you know my mother used to bake me

this kind of chocolate cake or i

remember having this chocolate cake at

this particular restaurant or bakery

or you know i wonder how many calories

are in a slice of chocolate cake or i

wonder what kind of chocolate is used in

that kind of chocolate cake all of these

different ideas you know and this is

this is the process of the default mode

network

so on an experiential level for the for

the awakened mind they just see

chocolate cake

now their mind you know they're they're

they might be habituated towards

enjoying chocolate cake but

you take away the chocolate cake from

them

and they won't get affected by it one

way or the other but to know if a mind

is filled with craving is oh they dig

into the chocolate cake you snatch it

away from them and look at their

reaction yeah they will feel agitated by

it

so coming through that idea of craving

you know we talk about it in terms of

you know this agitation as well the mind

that tightens up over something around

something

and then you look at that object of

craving and then you

you know you take that and you enjoy it

and then you feel relief

but that mind without any craving that

mind of the arahant is basically in

relief all the time relaxed all the time

so they don't need anything

to make them happy as it were right

their mind is always happy

it's a it's it's independent it's

liberated from

the need or desire to enjoy something

the need or desire to

have another object that that will

create happiness

internally they are filled with joy

internally they are filled with

relief internally they are filled with

equanimity

so there's no conceptual proliferation

going on when you see things as they are

what it's saying is

in the seeing you're only seeing it as

it is

there is this filtration system which is

you know filtered by the craving

filtered by

what's in it for me

how does this benefit me

or what can i get out of this

all of that is based in conceit

and for the fully awakened mind they

don't see it in that way they don't have

an agenda

so they can fully enjoy things as they

are

without having to add a layer or

superimpose a layer of a sense of

personal self right

yeah so

i mean this is

i think intuitive for a lot of people

what you're saying the sense that

we're

always

seeking for happiness out there looking

for things to satisfy us and we do this

all day long we do it on a micro level

whether it's just adjusting the position

in our chair to get away from something

that's unpleasant or moving towards and

wanting more of something that's

pleasant like the chocolate cake

and we do it on a macro level which is

seeking the new

house the new job the new partner

that we think will

finally make everything okay in our life

we'll finally be happy and that might be

true for some time but then the mind

just wants more of whatever it is that's

pleasant or wants to get rid of

unpleasant things people we don't like

situations we don't like

and so what you're describing this mind

without craving this awakened mind is

really a mind that's content no matter

what's going on is that right yes

yeah exactly it's content all the time

now you know we have to differentiate

between let's say bodily pain and mental

pain

so in the case of somebody who's not

fully awakened they will still have

mental pain we talk about this in the

form of the two arrows

or the two darts somebody feels pain

that's just a bodily pain

but then they add to it some kind of

agitation and that's where the

reactivity and trouble starts

but for the awakened mind there's only

the bodily pain so they will still feel

pain they will still feel

some kind of discomfort

right but there's no sense of

anger or irritation or

sadness or grief associated with that

pain

likewise

you know or on the flip side of that if

it's a pleasant feeling

they won't like grasp around it

so i would venture to say

that for the fully awakened mind

they don't have any sort of

you know

i would think that their dopamine and

serotonin levels are completely balanced

yeah in that sense they're not like

always looking for the next fix right as

it were right

yeah i mean so

the way this works with the chocolate

cake example for example is

when someone has already experienced

chocolate cake when they just at the

mere sight of it again their dopamine

reward system is going to start going

create this uncomfortable

urge to go get some chocolate cake to

satisfy that kind of agitated feeling

the cake will taste good but it's really

the relief that comes from finally

feeling like okay

that

agitation is gone

and it sounds like in the awakened mind

that no longer happens

um and it also sounds like the

pro you've mentioned proliferation where

we're just

constantly layering on

layers of abstraction from raw data in

the world so like we look at something

but we don't see it as it is we see

all of our memories of it and how it can

benefit us in one way or another and

what we expect it to be and how we want

more of it or less of it or you know

even like extreme emotions towards it

um instead of just like the color and

form that's there in our awareness yes

yes and so even the awakened mind will

have perception which is to say they

will have memory

of uh you know this is uh

you know this is a person that i know

from from

my friendship or from my childhood or

whatever it might be

but that's where the layer of

experience stops beyond that there's no

like grudge being held against them or

there's no like oh this person did this

to me or did that to me

you know we take a look at this for

example this pen

right

this pen for us

as humans is a writing instrument

for a dog it would be a chew toy yeah so

you know it's you will still perceive it

as it actually is you'll still say okay

this is a pen

but beyond that it won't say oh this is

a specific type of pen which i only like

yeah or my father gave me this pen so it

has some kind of emotional value to it

right so those kinds of projections are

gone and they wake in mind right so

you're not gonna cry and wail when the

you know you lose the pen but you're

also not going to start

chewing on it

[Laughter]

so that's good that's reassuring

so

all right this is kind of a i don't know

a spicy question but would someone

rather be a fully

healthy happy

celebrity because i a lot of celebrities

aren't happy but at least people think

think they are so let's pick a celebrity

who

you know

actually is pretty happy and they've

just they've got everything they they

want materially they've got the you know

the attractive partner and all that

for 100 years

or in the awakened mind for a single day

[Laughter]

i think that's a no-brainer

because you think about having a fully

awakened mind you know we talk about a

celebrity right let's say we talk about

a celebrity who's

extremely healthy

seems to be happy

but you know fame is what defines a

celebrity which means that there's

somebody who's well-known somebody who's

celebrated in society

but for what reason because they're

idolized for some kind of ideal that

they represent

whether they're coming from the movies

and they so personify a specific type of

character

or music you know or they they

they are celebrated as

somebody who is an artist or a writer or

a politician or somebody who's made some

great change in the world yeah that's

all well and good but

you know i look at it from today's

society

fame has become a currency

and it's become an emotional currency

and fame can be detrimental yeah you

know fame can be detrimental to one's

mental well-being yeah certainly so

people who try to

want to be famous they have all of these

grand ideas about what it means to be

famous

but

those very same things then become

detrimental to what they thought was

fiend so i guess for the for the sake of

this thought experiment

maybe celebrity was the wrong

term to pick but

someone who just has every material

possession they could want in terms of

the car the partner the job the you know

nice food nice house they can travel

anywhere yeah would you rather 100 years

of that or one one day with a mind

that's awakened in terms of how much

i guess joy you would get from it or

whatever yeah like i said it's a

no-brainer it would be the single day

and the reason i would say that is

because you're already happy

your happiness is not dependent upon

that car or dependent upon your bank

balance or dependent upon your family or

dependent upon having a life that you

always wanted

because having a life that you always

wanted there is that want you know

that's the craving and so your mind is

dependent

upon all of these

things

and people and relationships

but imagine a mind that's just happy for

the sake of being happy yeah

then you give them anything they're

happy

you give them a small little bowl of

food they're happy we give them an

entire smorgasbord of food and they're

happy too doesn't matter

i guess also what i'm getting at is is

that happiness to some extent like even

more so than

a mundane level yes

joy that someone would experience just

you know pick someone like your average

person on their best day of their life

right

right yeah let's say an average person

on their best day of their life

they have that uplifted joy they have

that uplift uplifted feeling

and it's quite possible that that

feeling is

internal and not dependent upon things

outside in terms of the sixth sense

basis

so that's a that's a wonderful kind of

happiness to be it but imagine that

where it's not even dependent upon how

the mind is experiencing anything

in other words there can be physical

happiness happiness that is the

gratification of the five physical

senses

and there can be mental happiness which

we talk about from our practice as being

associated with genres

these states of meditative

experiences that allow us to experience

joy and happiness and clarity and

equanimity and tranquility and

contentment and so on

but we're going even one step further

than that and saying that you have

experienced the ultimate happiness

so the way to look at it is it's like

layers or levels of happiness

and the fully awakened mind has gotten

to the pinnacle

of happiness so everything else compared

to that

it's

you know it's not worth it yeah okay

so this is this is mega happiness this

is mega mega

ginormous

happiness

see i think that's way better marketing

than

the end of suffering yeah for some

reason because it's kind of the positive

take on maybe we should say the

beginning of happiness

there we go

uh yeah anyways so that was kind of like

an inside buddhist joke for those who

don't you know first noble truth is

suffering and that's kind of the promise

is the end of suffering but um

uh

so when

in your own practice your own life

did

what was like the day-to-day

change in terms of

did your family notice any change in you

yeah that's a good question because uh

you know let's say we were to talk about

before or after i was always the person

who was always joking around

and uh always somebody who

you know just was very kind of

happy-go-lucky let's say so my family

didn't really notice a lot of changes in

terms of oh there's some kind of shift

there

but uh i think you know when it comes to

day-to-day conversations

the quality and content of those

conversations would have changed

in other words they would gravitate

towards

is what you're doing really worth what

you're doing in terms of is it actually

going to give you happiness or is it

just impermanent

so almost every conversation started to

become a dhamma talk as it were yeah uh

uh you know

a talk on a talk on the meditation

practice to talk on

you know

what is happiness what is joy or does it

make sense to do this or that

that kind of stuff

so i think they noticed those kind of

subtleties in terms of that

but uh

you know meeting friends after a long

time let's say

you know friends who i i hadn't seen in

over five years or in over 10 years

they definitely noticed a shift because

i was a different person five or 10

years ago just by the fact that time has

changed somebody

but regardless of that

they did notice uh certain shifts in

terms of

there was more wisdom about things there

was more clarity about things

and a lot of my friends were wondering

what is it that you're doing you know

can you tell me more about this yeah so

i've had the good fortune to be able to

help my friends

uh

go towards the beginning of happiness

towards the end of suffering yeah

um

you know

you know and that makes a lot of sense

too and i think family

also uh tends to kind of put us in a

neat little box and you talk about not

uh

filtering

reality and we certainly when we see our

family members we just think we know

exactly who they are and they can't

possibly change

but um

you know just as far as uh

like the day-to-day experience

what you're describing also sounds so

radical that someone might expect

uh

that person who's just perfectly content

to really just stop being a functional

human in some ways

and so but

you know just

getting to know you and from what you've

said like play like taste still tastes

good there's still pleasure in that

sense or

um

you know

there's still like

the desire to you know or not

maybe desires the wrong word but just

this ability to have like a fun joking

conversation so there's not like this

the shift isn't so drastic that someone

is

becoming an entirely

like a non-human right right and i think

that's a very good point that you bring

up which is a fully awakened mind is one

thing you know and and that doesn't mean

that the personality there is a there is

a personality shift in so far as how you

take the world to be

but you know the things that you've

grown up with the way that you react

the language that you speak

the culture that you come from

the foods that you are used to eating

the friends that you have the the the

inside jokes you have between friends

and things like that that doesn't go

away

but what goes away is any kind of

expectation

from people

any kind of expectation of how things

should be

or a dissatisfaction

with situations which are not how they

should be because there's no idea of

what should be and what shouldn't be

right

so you know that mind completely is in

the present moment as it were i mean

this is a very cliche thing but it

really is just present with everything

it's just always

in a mode of observing things as they

are so you mentioned earlier a little

bit earlier about you know tastes and

things like that so

foods actually taste better

you actually have you know when you have

pleasant experiences you are fully

experiencing that pleasant feeling

which means there's no you know when we

talk about our filtration system

when you know you have these sensory

data points coming in through the eyes

the ears the nose the tongue

the body and the mind it's just fully

experiencing it so i would i would

venture to say that tastes actually are

deeper

smells are sharper

your vision is sharper

hearing is clear

you know whatever you experience you're

experiencing fully

because there is complete

awareness there yeah complete

mindfulness there

it's due to lack of mindfulness that you

don't fully experience things as they

are or a person doesn't experience

things as they are right and there's

always like what's next you know what do

i do next what do i do here with the way

through there all of that goes away

right right

yeah i mean this is so interesting from

a scientific perspective because it's

really

supportive of different theories of how

consciousness works like the predictive

processing theory of consciousness

and

you know i understand you've been

involved in a study that hasn't been

published yet so you're not allowed to

maybe share the

full results that are

like initial results that you know of

but is there anything you could say

about

like what just generally speaking

when they studied your brain was there

any findings that would support that

experience of not adding to experience

uh yes i would say so uh i mean i can't

really explain exactly what the

researchers had initially told us about

what's going on because the research is

i mean the research paper is still

pending publication

but i could just tell you that it

definitely did support a lot of the

ideas that we see traditionally from

the

the ancient texts of buddhism

it's specifically about the experiences

of what what what is being experienced

in terms of the feeling and the

perception the feeling being the actual

sensory

experience and the perception being the

ability to cognize and understand what

it is that is being experienced

what they did notice and what i can

translate from that particular language

of of the sutras of the texts

is that there's no craving associated

with it

so that mind is just basically

not grasping at anything

right right there's no like

focus on like it has to be this way

there's no focus on that needs to be

mine yeah

it's just completely in a sense

defocused if you want you use the term

sticky too i think that's a good analogy

yeah

so that mind is like a teflon mind it's

like a it's non-sticky it's it's

whatever comes up

it just completely glides on through the

mind doesn't stick to anything nothing

sticks to the mind right and what that

means is you know the experience is

always fluid

right so that mind is always in flow

it's always in flux because it

understands reality as being always

arising and passing away which means

that things just come and go and they

come and go because of certain causes

and conditions yeah so that mind doesn't

hold on to it with an expectation of it

will always be this way

you know it understands that whatever

has happened has happened but if those

causes and conditions that provided that

happening to to be there that occurrence

to be there if that goes if those go

away then that's going to go away as

well the experience is going to go away

as well

yeah so that's why that mind isn't

focused on anything yeah

yeah and i think on the extreme end we

can all

well i think we can all relate to being

stuck on something whether it's a

thought that an argument we got into and

it just sticks in our mind and keeps

replaying and replaying until finally it

burns itself itself out so what a relief

if it would just pass through once and

then you know you're done with it

but i also wanted to mention as far as

the research is concerned that the next

guest on the fitment podcast is going to

be reuben laconin who's one of the

scientists who's studying you so we can

maybe talk more about that part

on this next episode but

for now i thought it'd be fun to do like

a small demonstration if you're up for

it with the muse headband so this is

going to measure your brain waves and

then we can show

um we can show it on my phone

and this will be for the youtube

viewers only

obviously

because i think it just needs to be

touching like the skin of kind of behind

your ear okay yeah

still not huh

why hold on

it takes a little while

yeah we can also just

give it a sec

okay so

i think we want to do like a pre and

post meditation right so this is are you

able to see this david

okay yeah so the caveat is that

this is

it is a clinical grade eeg but it's not

as nearly as sensitive as what you would

find in like the lab experiments that

you did

but these are the different brain wave

frequencies you have delta which is the

slowest

theta here purple alpha beta

and gamma which is high frequency

and you can see the different amounts

for them

so

this is kind of like

just delson's default state and we

you know this data would need to be

analyzed to really tell how much

there is of each frequency but

i wonder if there will be

some kind of a shift if you

if you do like a i guess like a one

minute meditation well we could try and

we could just try it

like a

okay see

cool so

i mean it's really hard to tell what's

going on because this is like

not giving us specific numbers or

anything but one thing that i noticed or

two things i noticed one was that as

soon as you closed your eyes to meditate

there was an immediate

massive drop in the and that's not

connected but there was an immediate

massive drop in the

uh in all frequencies across all the

bands and then the other was that the

delta was really

going up and up into the right for much

of the session and

delta is associated with deep sleep

but it's also

associated or what you would expect to

find in some kind of

cessation where there's um

you know the the mind isn't it's in a

very very calm or completely inactive

state

so thanks for that little demonstration

so my my understanding is that

what's been one of the things that's

been studied in the lab

is cessation which i think you mentioned

briefly at the beginning of our talk

um this lapse in experientially there's

no consciousness there there's just like

like a blank spot

and

you were able to go in

for an exact amount of time so like at

10 minutes you said i'll go into

cessation

you know they saw just a rapid decline

in brain activity and then at exactly

the 90 minute market booted up my

understanding is you can also go in

you've gone in for up to six days

so what is what is cessation and how

does this work exactly

yeah so when we talk about cessation

we're referring to a specific kind of

let's say non-experience because it's

not really an experience

but it it's

it's relating to what's known as

cessation of perception

and feeling and really that cessation of

perception

feeling and consciousness

what that means is

there's no more sensory data being

received even when the eyes are closed

you know you could still receive sensory

data through the ears or through the

nose or through feeling on on the body

or the mind might be active in thinking

about this or that or that might be some

kind of a mental constructive experience

or so on

but in the case of cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness all

of that goes away

so the my the year won't take in any

kind of sound waves

there won't be any smell being received

there won't be any kind of if you tap

the person they won't feel it

and tied to that there won't be any kind

of perception which means that there

won't be any kind of

recognition of what is going on

and consciousness what we're talking

about here is awareness so there's

completely like a blank you don't know

you were in that state

until you actually come out of it right

right and

i think you already alluded to this but

what is the benefit of

going into this advanced meditative

state

why would someone want to do this yeah

so first we have to understand that

there's two ways of looking at it

there's there's one way of where

somebody goes through the whole process

of the meditation

and they naturally experience cessation

of perception feeling and consciousness

and then there is something known as the

attainment of

of the cessation of perception feeling

in consciousness

the difference between the two is that

in the case of somebody who's meditating

their mind might shut off for maybe

a split second

don't really know how long it would have

been as soon as they come out of it

their mind is utterly pure this is what

we were called as being completely

unconditioned

and because all conditions have ceased

including consciousness so when the mind

comes back up again

any kind of contact any kind of spark

that arises

is unconditioned not caused by anything

that initial experience is an experience

of

nirvana or nibana

when we talk about nirvana nibana what

we're saying is you know near

it means fire

so there's no greed hatred or delusion

there there's no craving there's no

grasping

there's no aversion there there's no

identification with anything so that's

the unconditioned mind that's the

unconditioned mind

but it also means uh

vana also obama and vana also mean

forest

meaning there's no forest of conceptual

proliferation going on

there's nothing like being attitude you

know there's no groves there's no

there's no grass growing anywhere it's

just

right there in there pure mind

so that mind is completely unconditioned

that is the benefit of going to

cessation being able to then experience

as it war

uh nibana

and there's some kind of a shift that

occurs from that even before

full awakening right where yes just

having seen how the mind actually works

seeing it kind of boot back up to use a

computer analogy from

cessation there's some kind of uh you

can't unsee that now you really know how

mind works yes and this is what we refer

to as dependent origination

what we are seeing is how mind works in

terms of how it creates reality right

so subjectively everything that we

experience

is through the five physical senses and

the mind

so we are seeing afric coming out of

cessation how the mind creates its own

suffering

or how the mind creates craving whenever

there is some kind of a fuel for that

craving

so it gets really deep but what we're

talking about are these

percolations these proto thoughts that

arise give rising to giving rise

to concepts

and ideas that are projected onto an

experience

that can then give rise to full-blown

craving

clinging and then you know suffering

down the road

so we're seeing that in real time as

these things come up

and we're able to let them go

the thing is that mind is seeing it

without having to bring it up because

it's always happening it's actually

happening whether you know it or not

but now when you have this mind that is

so pure that it can see things

at that minute level

it's actually seeing oh this is what's

happening

now in the fully awakened mind it sees

it but there's no grasping on it before

that there's some level of grasping

whether that's some kind of craving

some kind of conceit or idea of a sense

of self or whatever it might be

but for the fully awakened mind there's

no kind of grasping of this is me this

is mine this is myself

it's just seeing it and that's it

no it's just completely equanimous

no feeling of relief or anything because

now it's just feeling relief

all the time

okay okay so you've

you kind of punctuate

that with certain

like a few times and eventually becomes

the default state yeah and then all the

time the mind is in this unconditioned

state where it's not

the dependent origination the chain of

causality doesn't

you know there's still like feelings

occurring and stuff

but it's not layering on top all this

craving and all this like ideas of how

the world should be or trying to grasp

after

experiences and whatever it is yeah so

basically what we're saying here is that

when you come out of cessation

perception feeling and consciousness

your mind is pure which means your mind

for that split second

is like the mind of an arahant is fully

awakened but what happens is

there is superimposed upon that some

kind of clinging of self they're

superimposed upon that like i want this

experience again yeah that's where the

craving arises

but if you let go of that completely

where those layers of abstraction are

gone

then that's it what had to be done has

been done yeah

i want to bring up a point here because

i think a lot of

meditation teachers today and spiritual

teachers

will say the cliche like be here some

version of like be here now or

you know it's all about being present

you know just

just be here it's you know it's that

easy but

it's not as we all know like it's

the mind naturally

just wants to get away from the present

moment and do all this

uh

filtration all this elaboration and

grasping

after the next moment wanting this

moment to be different than it is yeah

but that's so deeply ingrained that you

can't just tell yourself be here now

this is an actual training process that

you've described is that right that's

correct that's absolutely right because

that's a wandering mind so wandering

mind is a mind with craving

so when the mind wonders there's some

kind of agitation there's some kind of

craving that's happening

so the six hours that we talk about is a

process of deconditioning that wandering

mind

and then reconditioning so that it no

longer wonders

and it's here now as it were it's it's

always present as it were

but you also have to understand that

even being present or the notion of

being present even in the present moment

there can be an idea of

this is me i can still be

a central sort of

person

around the present moment

for the fully awakened mind that

completely dissolves as well

so if you talk about the present moment

it's just a concept in that sense

is there any sense of an experiencer

that's experiencing

there's only an experience going on

that's so radical i you know it's tough

to imagine yeah

yeah it is because everybody comes from

a sense of self like how could you take

away the sense of an experience and how

could there be just an experience

isn't there somebody actually observing

the experience

and no as the experience is happening

there is a knowing of that experience

this is what's known as the eye of

wisdom or the eye of dhamma right so

just being able to see things as they

are but there's no there's no grabbing

with the sense of i am experiencing it

it's just an experience

there is a knowing that this experience

arose because something led to that

experience

so it's actually just seeing dependent

origination all the time

up until the level of feeling

beyond that there's no craving and

before that there's no ignorance because

it's always

present

so if someone wanted to you know if

someone was inspired to start working

towards this this

uh

this training regimen you know you've

mentioned the 6rs that's something that

is taught here at damasuka i've also put

the 6rs on

the fitmind app and the

it's called the deep path module

so that's really like a meditation

practice that they can

undertake in in a sitting sense

but just in terms of going about their

day how might they start reconditioning

the mind

towards you know eventually that being

their default state

right so any kind of meditation but

specifically when we talk about

meditation here

it's about being collected

and being collected means that the mind

has sustained attention on one specific

object on one particular object that

doesn't mean that it's fully focused

doesn't mean that it's concentrated

doesn't mean that it's one pointed

what it means is that that that mind has

an anchor

to stay here

to stay here and now

and in the in the in the course of our

practice we use loving kindness as a

feeling as a psychosomatic feeling that

is experienced as loving-kindness or

compassion or joy or equanimity as we

progress

but that experience becomes the anchor

to the present right becomes an anchor

to being here and now

then

you know when you see that you're no

longer on your object is how you

decondition using the six r's right so i

think a lot of people are familiar with

using the breath as an object

but

here it's often taught you know in the

way in the tradition that you've

practiced

it's

uh and this is called the twin

meditation tranquil wisdom insight

meditation

the object is this

feeling of of good vibes of love and

kindness

and it's

it's naturally

it feels good for the mind to be with

that

i so that's one reason why i think it's

so effective and it also is kind of

conducive to this open awareness that's

really able to investigate reality as it

or experience as it is yes yes so that

six-hour process that we use is actually

developing wisdom

understanding and not getting caught up

in the distraction

uh not having any resistance to the

distraction

not trying to push away the distraction

we're not trying to suppress the

distraction we're recognizing oh

mind is no longer on its object mind is

distracted okay no big deal

release your attention from that relax

let go of the tightness and tension let

go of the craving come back to the smile

now the smile is so important here so

people can just start the meditation or

start coming into a meditative state if

they're just starting

is to stay with the smile because the

smile keeps the mind uplifted keeps it

light yeah keeps it joyful and playful

so it actually keeps it very present in

whatever is going on and you'll notice

when people ruminate

when people start to think about this or

that their smile goes away

right

so you come back to the smile and you

come back to your object

so this is the process and you can apply

the six hours anywhere it doesn't have

to be just meditation

if you notice that your mind starts to

pop up with all kinds of ideas resisting

to the present moment

not being happy with what's going on

or trying to change it in some way

or having a reactivity to somebody

saying something you can notice that

that's the recognized step you can

release your attention from that

you can relax in that moment

and come back to the smile or come back

to something that's more uplifting yeah

and then

respond with wisdom respond with

compassion respond with balance of mind

so the meditation is not just

formally sitting and

staying with your object

but it's also being aware of how mind's

attention moves from one thing to the

other this is what we say is the

definition of mindfulness right meaning

you're observing how your mind actually

works and that's where wisdom comes from

right right

so you're just observing without

interfering

you know it's an interesting point about

the smiling too because

if you just look around

at

people on the street or wherever it is a

restaurant that you're eating

you see so much tension in their face

and so much like for so many furrowed

brows and so much anger or like and you

can just tell that their mindset must be

one of filled with craving yeah

yeah

and you know you could help them by uh

trying to compliment on something or

just pass a joyful comment to them and

you see how their their eyes light up

and how they're happy this is this is

the true

understanding of meditation is that it's

not just

uh the sitting and walking and

everything else but it's how you

interact with people as well

yeah so loving kindness is not about

just feeling it but actually being able

to spread it through your actions

through your words

through your intentions

so if you can smile you'll notice that

people start to gravitate towards you

naturally yeah and they start to smile

around you and it's not something you

have to get out and go out of your own

way to do

it just naturally translate and

translates into situations and

circumstances

where people start to feel

that kind of energy around you yeah

yeah and you know the other point that

you made that i just wanted to

re-emphasize is that when you relax

you're feeling

the relief before

needing to satisfy whatever it is you

think you need to make you happy

so if it's the chocolate cake if you

just relax instead of

feeling tense and then needing to eat

the cake to finally relax if you just

relax that step of the six hours you

immediately feel just as good in fact

better because you're you know you're

not full of cake yeah

yeah and that's a very good point i mean

we talk about at a very extreme level

crimes of passion or people who do

something out of reactivity

it's just like a split second it's not

even decision it's just like they act

but if you can slow things down on on

the cognitive level

and realize that oh i'm starting to get

you know agitated about this

and relax and experience really in that

moment when you relax you're

experiencing relief which is also the

third normal truth of the cessation of

suffering right so your mind being free

of that craving free of that suffering

in that moment is wise

so you won't react you won't be reactive

to the situation or to the person you'll

actually

give that space

give that time for your mind to

take in all that information

because it's relaxed it can bring up

something that is wholesome

bring up something that is

the best outcome for that situation or

that person

in a sense i would i would think that

you know what you're doing is you're

giving your brain the space

so that the prefrontal cortex comes up

and is able to then really make a proper

judgment of things rather than just

immediately reacting right yeah you're

no longer a robot you're

responsive and uh aware of what's

happening

yeah it's a good way to put it so

are you ready for the traditional rapid

fire uh final section of the interview

let's do it

all right so uh

i know you're a big movie buff what's

your favorite movie of all time

star wars the empire strikes back and

i'll tell you why please

please please expand look i mean the

whole star wars trilogy is great right

but the empire strikes back is the first

time

you meet yoda

and that's the first time you get really

deep wisdom into

things that were

you know the jedi and the jedi order

were really inspired

from the ancient spiritual traditions

right specifically buddhism yeah so and

empire strikes back is just a great

movie yeah i mean just in terms of

cinematic appeal it's got a great story

great characters great script great

dialogue

all of those things

now it is difficult to choose one movie

but i would have to say since this is a

rapid fire that's the movie i would

choose

thank you for being so definitive

and uh

yeah i mean my understanding is yoda was

based off of either maharishi

mahashiyogi or

tibetan llama right um yeah was it

george lucas that was

yeah yeah yeah he clearly did a lot of

meditation and you know we we talk about

this here in the meditation as well

people you know you give advice to

people and you tell them this is what

you should try you should not try that's

the other thing this is what you should

do yeah and then they'll people will say

i'll try

yeah okay and that's i'll try my best

and that's when you say

there is no tragedy do or do not

yeah and that comes from the great

wisdom of yoda right so

yoda has some great lines that allow you

to know

you know like you know in in

in one of the movies he says he actually

talks about dependent origination

in some sense he says fear leads to

anger anger leads to hate

hate leads to suffering so he's showing

causality and conditionality

this leads to this this leads to that

let go of this and you let go of

suffering let go of this you let go of

hate and so on

so some great

great quotes by yoda smart yeah very

smart little afraid

yeah

see through you we can

be mindful of your feelings your

thoughts dwell on your mother

i miss her

afraid to lose her i think

what does that got to do with anything

everything

fear is the path to the dark side

fear leads to anger anger leads to hate

hate

leads to suffering

[Music]

um

what's something people might be

surprised to learn about you

uh that i was a screenwriter uh before i

got into the meditative tradition

and i actually uh

you know optioned well some of my

screenplays were optioned by some really

interesting celebrities

so

matt damon right didn't he buy one of

you matt damon robert de niro a few

other people yeah so any idea when that

might be coming out there

you never know with these things i mean

when it comes to the movies uh it can

take anywhere from 10 to 15 years for a

movie to come out because there's so

much stuff to do in pre-production but

that that particular uh script

was optioned uh back in 2000

uh

i'd say 2011 or 12 and then the other

one 2013 so

any minute now okay all right i'll

decide a calendar reminder to check back

in a few years uh

what what's one thing that you'd change

about the world today

what's one thing i would change about

the world today yeah as far as i guess i

should be more specific like

um

in terms of

i guess geopolitically or kind of just

in terms of what people are doing with

their lives

maybe that's a better better way to

phrase it well the way i would look at

it is

that's just their karma

yeah you know

so the way people react to situations

whether it's on a geopolitical scale or

climate change and all of these things

this is why we're here is to experience

all of this

so

in my mind things are okay

things are fine it's just causes and

conditions but we have some kind of

free will is a hairy topic but yeah

there's some kind of decision there are

decisions being made right

uh

and if people were to slow down as you

described and use this process of kind

of retraining the mind and being more

aware yeah that might naturally change a

lot of things don't you think yeah so i

think one thing we should change is

probably get twimmed to every single

global leader yeah

like right away right away

yeah i couldn't agree more

um and then finally what's a place you'd

like to visit most in the world

well i think a place i would like to

revisit again would be back in the

himalayas going to the cave

you know and chill there

wonderful um

and you know also throw it out for

those listening that you're doing this

kind of world tour and you're booked

through

i think through like 2023 now yeah

you you know if they

i guess if they live in a major city or

somewhere at the meditation center they

could you could probably be in touch

with uh

yeah so they should get in touch with uh

uh sutawata

and send an email to info

dot foundation

right uh or just go to the go to the

website sudavada.foundation

and then if they're interested they can

contact

the people there so you've got

india

next uh

for september through

like november four retreats there then

malaysia bali sfla so yeah so i got

india and then malaysia and then

indonesia so i'll be in jakarta for a

couple of days and i'll be in bali for a

few days

and then from there

i'll be going to san francisco

i have

time spent over here at damasuca

for at least three or four months so

that's going to hurt in missouri

and then also something going on in l.a

then from there i'm going to

uh europe

so i'll be in the uk uh possibly

netherlands belgium

possibly italy yeah um

and then who knows where else and then

australia is another option at the end

of 2023. and can people find these on a

website somewhere where would they sign

up for their retreats okay so there's a

couple of places one would be uh

damasuka would have it damasuka.org

sutavara.foundation and now

you know sudavara has actually created a

new website

uh which is sort of just my kind of

calling card and that's uh delson

armstrong

dot info oh nice you're a dot info now

yeah i'm a dot info

now uh great so i'll put all those links

in the show notes and um

yeah i also just want to give you a

chance to

to plug oh and also put a link to your

patreon page which we're going to make

soon and then

um i just wanted to give you a chance to

plug your work as far as uh

you know where can people find your your

books yeah on amazon right so mine

without craving is on amazon it's

available for

a free download on the sutawata webpage

and it's also available for

download free download on the delson

armstrong dot info page but it'll be

available on

it is available on amazon as paperback

as hardcover and as kindle and here it

is shameless plug buy it now or download

it free on yeah those sites i told you

you know and i should also mention that

everything

all of delson's teaching is for free and

it's donation based yeah so i mean that

model is i think kind of rare in in the

world today and so he really

uh yeah i mean if you could support

delson on on patreon

if you

think what he does is useful for the

world that would be uh just a great act

of generosity so anyway delson this has

been an absolute pleasure thanks for

coming on the fitment podcast thank you

i had fun as always

hi i'm mehta nanda a salmonera monk here

at damasuke meditation center

and today i'm lucky to be joined by

delson armstrong who's a friend a

meditation teacher

he's leading retreats all around the

world and a very experienced yogi and

meditator

he's actually been collaborating with

elite neuroscience labs

all over the world in amsterdam and soon

in harvard at harvard and

he's um

actually in in this episode we'll have a

cool visual demonstration

of delson's brain waves using the muse

which is the consumer

eeg which basically is a headband

as

you'll see soon that can measure

delson's brain while he meditates

and most recently delson is the author

of a book called titled a mind without

craving

so delson welcome to the welcome to the

show thanks for being here thanks for

having me good to be here

so i think that'll be a good place to

start with the title of your book a mind

without craving

what does that mean

yeah mind without cravings so when we

talk about a mind without craving

what we're saying is it's a mind that's

happy all the time

and the reason i say that is because if

you look at it from the context of the

practice that we do here

we're looking at it from what's known as

the four noble truths which is suffering

the cause of suffering the

cessation of suffering and the way

leading to the cessation of suffering

and a mind without craving is the third

noble truth which is the cessation of

any kind of suffering which means you

cease the craving

and when we talk about craving craving

is basically that mind that grasps at

something

from a sense of self

it says i like it or i don't like it or

i am it

and it manifests as tightness and

tension in the head

and in the body

so a mind without craving is basically a

mind that has no mental suffering at all

it will still feel pain it will still

feel bodily pain it will still feel

bodily discomfort

it'll still have unpleasant feelings

but there won't be any mental agitation

because of it

so there won't be any grasping there

won't be any kind of reactivity to it

and so that mind without craving is

basically a mind

that is relaxed all the time that has

relief all the time and is happy all the

time

beautiful i mean this sounds like

something that

we would all want and uh i think it's

kind of radical what you're saying

because

most people don't realize that's even a

possibility i mean it's just kind of

accepted that part of the human

condition is that there's this perpetual

cycle of kind of dissatisfaction and

then striving to get something in the

future that might make us happy

experiencing some joy here and there but

really

looking for things a lot of the time and

the meditation traditions

have

traditionally this big promise that you

can have a mind without suffering

but i don't think a lot of people even

realize that's possible

so how did this come about for you if

you're able to just kind of

walk us through like

the last kind of cognitive shifts that

occurred for you

when doing the meditation practice

right so first we should understand that

when we talk about this meditation

practice what really differentiates it

from other meditative practices

the majority of meditation practices

is that there is what's known as

the relaxed step so the way to apply the

meditation

is basically observing

an object of meditation

and you remain collected in that object

of meditation

when your mind gets distracted when your

mind moves away from it you use the six

hours and at the heart of that is what's

known as relax

so very briefly put the six hours is

recognizing when you got distracted

releasing attention from it relaxing any

tightness and tension that's the craving

or agitation

coming back to a smile to uplift the

mind and returning back to your objects

yeah and the six is repeat

so that was the application of effort

that i did so it was very relaxed very

open very spacious in terms of the

mindset and the awareness

because of that my mind was able to

actually get really deep into the

practice

and in a very relaxed manner

there comes a point in the meditation

for everyone where there is a really

uh

wonderful joyful cognitive shift that

happens

and this happens when the mind first

completely shuts off as war there's no

consciousness there there's no awareness

there

and when it comes back online there is

this rush

of joy and relief that is experienced

and as a result when you come out of the

meditation and you look around you

everything seems very hyper vivid

it's everything is much cleaner as it

were there's no impediments

you know before you see a tree and yeah

you see it's a tree that's great but

after this cognitive shift you look at

the tree and you actually see each and

every detail of the leaf of that tree

and the bark of that tree or each blade

of grass

or each curvature of clouds in the sky

you know it's very hyper

detailed

and the way i look at that the way i

understand it is that the mind in that

in that time has let go a lot of craving

let go of a lot of suffering

so there's no more of this filtration

system or the filter as it were has been

cleaned up

yeah so you can see reality as it

actually is

amazing so

um

you know the

the way you describe this in your book i

think is pretty beautiful

you say the mind of an arhat which is

someone who's fully awakened

is completely free from all concepts

when he or she experiences reality as it

is through the sixth sense basis so this

is the five senses and then also the

mind

consciousness feeling and perception all

these processes are completely empty

completely void they're empty of any

conceit of i me or mine when an arhat

experiences reality there is no

conceptual proliferation that arises

from any perception that arises it is

being experienced in that moment through

the sense and the sense faculties

their consciousness the awareness is

still functional but it is void of any

sense of self

so this no self experience

or not self experience is

also commonly talked about in different

meditation traditions

but i think it's a very confusing one

for people because they just look down

at their body and they think it's pretty

obvious that there's a self here

so

what is that actually mean

experientially to not feel like anything

is self

yeah

so when we talk about self and not self

or no self but it's really not self

which is you understand that everything

is just empty of any kind of

personal self

you realize that everything is a process

or a series of processes that are just

causes and conditions to bring about

that

experience here for someone who becomes

fully awakened

they experience the world in such a way

that there is no more as it's written

there conceptual proliferation

or mental proliferation

so we could take the example of a

chocolate cake

right somebody somebody who's not fully

awakened or not awakened at all looks at

chocolate cake and there can be all of

these ideas around that chocolate cake

like you know my mother used to bake me

this kind of chocolate cake or i

remember having this chocolate cake at

this particular restaurant or bakery

or you know i wonder how many calories

are in a slice of chocolate cake or i

wonder what kind of chocolate is used in

that kind of chocolate cake all of these

different ideas you know and this is

this is the process of the default mode

network

so on an experiential level for the for

the awakened mind they just see

chocolate cake

now their mind you know they're they're

they might be habituated towards

enjoying chocolate cake but

you take away the chocolate cake from

them

and they won't get affected by it one

way or the other but to know if a mind

is filled with craving is oh they dig

into the chocolate cake you snatch it

away from them and look at their

reaction yeah they will feel agitated by

it

so coming through that idea of craving

you know we talk about it in terms of

you know this agitation as well the mind

that tightens up over something around

something

and then you look at that object of

craving and then you

you know you take that and you enjoy it

and then you feel relief

but that mind without any craving that

mind of the arahant is basically in

relief all the time relaxed all the time

so they don't need anything

to make them happy as it were right

their mind is always happy

it's a it's it's independent it's

liberated from

the need or desire to enjoy something

the need or desire to

have another object that that will

create happiness

internally they are filled with joy

internally they are filled with

relief internally they are filled with

equanimity

so there's no conceptual proliferation

going on when you see things as they are

what it's saying is

in the seeing you're only seeing it as

it is

there is this filtration system which is

you know filtered by the craving

filtered by

what's in it for me

how does this benefit me

or what can i get out of this

all of that is based in conceit

and for the fully awakened mind they

don't see it in that way they don't have

an agenda

so they can fully enjoy things as they

are

without having to add a layer or

superimpose a layer of a sense of

personal self right

yeah so

i mean this is

i think intuitive for a lot of people

what you're saying the sense that

we're

always

seeking for happiness out there looking

for things to satisfy us and we do this

all day long we do it on a micro level

whether it's just adjusting the position

in our chair to get away from something

that's unpleasant or moving towards and

wanting more of something that's

pleasant like the chocolate cake

and we do it on a macro level which is

seeking the new

house the new job the new partner

that we think will

finally make everything okay in our life

we'll finally be happy and that might be

true for some time but then the mind

just wants more of whatever it is that's

pleasant or wants to get rid of

unpleasant things people we don't like

situations we don't like

and so what you're describing this mind

without craving this awakened mind is

really a mind that's content no matter

what's going on is that right yes

yeah exactly it's content all the time

now you know we have to differentiate

between let's say bodily pain and mental

pain

so in the case of somebody who's not

fully awakened they will still have

mental pain we talk about this in the

form of the two arrows

or the two darts somebody feels pain

that's just a bodily pain

but then they add to it some kind of

agitation and that's where the

reactivity and trouble starts

but for the awakened mind there's only

the bodily pain so they will still feel

pain they will still feel

some kind of discomfort

right but there's no sense of

anger or irritation or

sadness or grief associated with that

pain

likewise

you know or on the flip side of that if

it's a pleasant feeling

they won't like grasp around it

so i would venture to say

that for the fully awakened mind

they don't have any sort of

you know

i would think that their dopamine and

serotonin levels are completely balanced

yeah in that sense they're not like

always looking for the next fix right as

it were right

yeah i mean so

the way this works with the chocolate

cake example for example is

when someone has already experienced

chocolate cake when they just at the

mere sight of it again their dopamine

reward system is going to start going

create this uncomfortable

urge to go get some chocolate cake to

satisfy that kind of agitated feeling

the cake will taste good but it's really

the relief that comes from finally

feeling like okay

that

agitation is gone

and it sounds like in the awakened mind

that no longer happens

um and it also sounds like the

pro you've mentioned proliferation where

we're just

constantly layering on

layers of abstraction from raw data in

the world so like we look at something

but we don't see it as it is we see

all of our memories of it and how it can

benefit us in one way or another and

what we expect it to be and how we want

more of it or less of it or you know

even like extreme emotions towards it

um instead of just like the color and

form that's there in our awareness yes

yes and so even the awakened mind will

have perception which is to say they

will have memory

of uh you know this is uh

you know this is a person that i know

from from

my friendship or from my childhood or

whatever it might be

but that's where the layer of

experience stops beyond that there's no

like grudge being held against them or

there's no like oh this person did this

to me or did that to me

you know we take a look at this for

example this pen

right

this pen for us

as humans is a writing instrument

for a dog it would be a chew toy yeah so

you know it's you will still perceive it

as it actually is you'll still say okay

this is a pen

but beyond that it won't say oh this is

a specific type of pen which i only like

yeah or my father gave me this pen so it

has some kind of emotional value to it

right so those kinds of projections are

gone and they wake in mind right so

you're not gonna cry and wail when the

you know you lose the pen but you're

also not going to start

chewing on it

[Laughter]

so that's good that's reassuring

so

all right this is kind of a i don't know

a spicy question but would someone

rather be a fully

healthy happy

celebrity because i a lot of celebrities

aren't happy but at least people think

think they are so let's pick a celebrity

who

you know

actually is pretty happy and they've

just they've got everything they they

want materially they've got the you know

the attractive partner and all that

for 100 years

or in the awakened mind for a single day

[Laughter]

i think that's a no-brainer

because you think about having a fully

awakened mind you know we talk about a

celebrity right let's say we talk about

a celebrity who's

extremely healthy

seems to be happy

but you know fame is what defines a

celebrity which means that there's

somebody who's well-known somebody who's

celebrated in society

but for what reason because they're

idolized for some kind of ideal that

they represent

whether they're coming from the movies

and they so personify a specific type of

character

or music you know or they they

they are celebrated as

somebody who is an artist or a writer or

a politician or somebody who's made some

great change in the world yeah that's

all well and good but

you know i look at it from today's

society

fame has become a currency

and it's become an emotional currency

and fame can be detrimental yeah you

know fame can be detrimental to one's

mental well-being yeah certainly so

people who try to

want to be famous they have all of these

grand ideas about what it means to be

famous

but

those very same things then become

detrimental to what they thought was

fiend so i guess for the for the sake of

this thought experiment

maybe celebrity was the wrong

term to pick but

someone who just has every material

possession they could want in terms of

the car the partner the job the you know

nice food nice house they can travel

anywhere yeah would you rather 100 years

of that or one one day with a mind

that's awakened in terms of how much

i guess joy you would get from it or

whatever yeah like i said it's a

no-brainer it would be the single day

and the reason i would say that is

because you're already happy

your happiness is not dependent upon

that car or dependent upon your bank

balance or dependent upon your family or

dependent upon having a life that you

always wanted

because having a life that you always

wanted there is that want you know

that's the craving and so your mind is

dependent

upon all of these

things

and people and relationships

but imagine a mind that's just happy for

the sake of being happy yeah

then you give them anything they're

happy

you give them a small little bowl of

food they're happy we give them an

entire smorgasbord of food and they're

happy too doesn't matter

i guess also what i'm getting at is is

that happiness to some extent like even

more so than

a mundane level yes

joy that someone would experience just

you know pick someone like your average

person on their best day of their life

right

right yeah let's say an average person

on their best day of their life

they have that uplifted joy they have

that uplift uplifted feeling

and it's quite possible that that

feeling is

internal and not dependent upon things

outside in terms of the sixth sense

basis

so that's a that's a wonderful kind of

happiness to be it but imagine that

where it's not even dependent upon how

the mind is experiencing anything

in other words there can be physical

happiness happiness that is the

gratification of the five physical

senses

and there can be mental happiness which

we talk about from our practice as being

associated with genres

these states of meditative

experiences that allow us to experience

joy and happiness and clarity and

equanimity and tranquility and

contentment and so on

but we're going even one step further

than that and saying that you have

experienced the ultimate happiness

so the way to look at it is it's like

layers or levels of happiness

and the fully awakened mind has gotten

to the pinnacle

of happiness so everything else compared

to that

it's

you know it's not worth it yeah okay

so this is this is mega happiness this

is mega mega

ginormous

happiness

see i think that's way better marketing

than

the end of suffering yeah for some

reason because it's kind of the positive

take on maybe we should say the

beginning of happiness

there we go

uh yeah anyways so that was kind of like

an inside buddhist joke for those who

don't you know first noble truth is

suffering and that's kind of the promise

is the end of suffering but um

uh

so when

in your own practice your own life

did

what was like the day-to-day

change in terms of

did your family notice any change in you

yeah that's a good question because uh

you know let's say we were to talk about

before or after i was always the person

who was always joking around

and uh always somebody who

you know just was very kind of

happy-go-lucky let's say so my family

didn't really notice a lot of changes in

terms of oh there's some kind of shift

there

but uh i think you know when it comes to

day-to-day conversations

the quality and content of those

conversations would have changed

in other words they would gravitate

towards

is what you're doing really worth what

you're doing in terms of is it actually

going to give you happiness or is it

just impermanent

so almost every conversation started to

become a dhamma talk as it were yeah uh

uh you know

a talk on a talk on the meditation

practice to talk on

you know

what is happiness what is joy or does it

make sense to do this or that

that kind of stuff

so i think they noticed those kind of

subtleties in terms of that

but uh

you know meeting friends after a long

time let's say

you know friends who i i hadn't seen in

over five years or in over 10 years

they definitely noticed a shift because

i was a different person five or 10

years ago just by the fact that time has

changed somebody

but regardless of that

they did notice uh certain shifts in

terms of

there was more wisdom about things there

was more clarity about things

and a lot of my friends were wondering

what is it that you're doing you know

can you tell me more about this yeah so

i've had the good fortune to be able to

help my friends

uh

go towards the beginning of happiness

towards the end of suffering yeah

um

you know

you know and that makes a lot of sense

too and i think family

also uh tends to kind of put us in a

neat little box and you talk about not

uh

filtering

reality and we certainly when we see our

family members we just think we know

exactly who they are and they can't

possibly change

but um

you know just as far as uh

like the day-to-day experience

what you're describing also sounds so

radical that someone might expect

uh

that person who's just perfectly content

to really just stop being a functional

human in some ways

and so but

you know just

getting to know you and from what you've

said like play like taste still tastes

good there's still pleasure in that

sense or

um

you know

there's still like

the desire to you know or not

maybe desires the wrong word but just

this ability to have like a fun joking

conversation so there's not like this

the shift isn't so drastic that someone

is

becoming an entirely

like a non-human right right and i think

that's a very good point that you bring

up which is a fully awakened mind is one

thing you know and and that doesn't mean

that the personality there is a there is

a personality shift in so far as how you

take the world to be

but you know the things that you've

grown up with the way that you react

the language that you speak

the culture that you come from

the foods that you are used to eating

the friends that you have the the the

inside jokes you have between friends

and things like that that doesn't go

away

but what goes away is any kind of

expectation

from people

any kind of expectation of how things

should be

or a dissatisfaction

with situations which are not how they

should be because there's no idea of

what should be and what shouldn't be

right

so you know that mind completely is in

the present moment as it were i mean

this is a very cliche thing but it

really is just present with everything

it's just always

in a mode of observing things as they

are so you mentioned earlier a little

bit earlier about you know tastes and

things like that so

foods actually taste better

you actually have you know when you have

pleasant experiences you are fully

experiencing that pleasant feeling

which means there's no you know when we

talk about our filtration system

when you know you have these sensory

data points coming in through the eyes

the ears the nose the tongue

the body and the mind it's just fully

experiencing it so i would i would

venture to say that tastes actually are

deeper

smells are sharper

your vision is sharper

hearing is clear

you know whatever you experience you're

experiencing fully

because there is complete

awareness there yeah complete

mindfulness there

it's due to lack of mindfulness that you

don't fully experience things as they

are or a person doesn't experience

things as they are right and there's

always like what's next you know what do

i do next what do i do here with the way

through there all of that goes away

right right

yeah i mean this is so interesting from

a scientific perspective because it's

really

supportive of different theories of how

consciousness works like the predictive

processing theory of consciousness

and

you know i understand you've been

involved in a study that hasn't been

published yet so you're not allowed to

maybe share the

full results that are

like initial results that you know of

but is there anything you could say

about

like what just generally speaking

when they studied your brain was there

any findings that would support that

experience of not adding to experience

uh yes i would say so uh i mean i can't

really explain exactly what the

researchers had initially told us about

what's going on because the research is

i mean the research paper is still

pending publication

but i could just tell you that it

definitely did support a lot of the

ideas that we see traditionally from

the

the ancient texts of buddhism

it's specifically about the experiences

of what what what is being experienced

in terms of the feeling and the

perception the feeling being the actual

sensory

experience and the perception being the

ability to cognize and understand what

it is that is being experienced

what they did notice and what i can

translate from that particular language

of of the sutras of the texts

is that there's no craving associated

with it

so that mind is just basically

not grasping at anything

right right there's no like

focus on like it has to be this way

there's no focus on that needs to be

mine yeah

it's just completely in a sense

defocused if you want you use the term

sticky too i think that's a good analogy

yeah

so that mind is like a teflon mind it's

like a it's non-sticky it's it's

whatever comes up

it just completely glides on through the

mind doesn't stick to anything nothing

sticks to the mind right and what that

means is you know the experience is

always fluid

right so that mind is always in flow

it's always in flux because it

understands reality as being always

arising and passing away which means

that things just come and go and they

come and go because of certain causes

and conditions yeah so that mind doesn't

hold on to it with an expectation of it

will always be this way

you know it understands that whatever

has happened has happened but if those

causes and conditions that provided that

happening to to be there that occurrence

to be there if that goes if those go

away then that's going to go away as

well the experience is going to go away

as well

yeah so that's why that mind isn't

focused on anything yeah

yeah and i think on the extreme end we

can all

well i think we can all relate to being

stuck on something whether it's a

thought that an argument we got into and

it just sticks in our mind and keeps

replaying and replaying until finally it

burns itself itself out so what a relief

if it would just pass through once and

then you know you're done with it

but i also wanted to mention as far as

the research is concerned that the next

guest on the fitment podcast is going to

be reuben laconin who's one of the

scientists who's studying you so we can

maybe talk more about that part

on this next episode but

for now i thought it'd be fun to do like

a small demonstration if you're up for

it with the muse headband so this is

going to measure your brain waves and

then we can show

um we can show it on my phone

and this will be for the youtube

viewers only

obviously

because i think it just needs to be

touching like the skin of kind of behind

your ear okay yeah

still not huh

why hold on

it takes a little while

yeah we can also just

give it a sec

okay so

i think we want to do like a pre and

post meditation right so this is are you

able to see this david

okay yeah so the caveat is that

this is

it is a clinical grade eeg but it's not

as nearly as sensitive as what you would

find in like the lab experiments that

you did

but these are the different brain wave

frequencies you have delta which is the

slowest

theta here purple alpha beta

and gamma which is high frequency

and you can see the different amounts

for them

so

this is kind of like

just delson's default state and we

you know this data would need to be

analyzed to really tell how much

there is of each frequency but

i wonder if there will be

some kind of a shift if you

if you do like a i guess like a one

minute meditation well we could try and

we could just try it

like a

okay see

cool so

i mean it's really hard to tell what's

going on because this is like

not giving us specific numbers or

anything but one thing that i noticed or

two things i noticed one was that as

soon as you closed your eyes to meditate

there was an immediate

massive drop in the and that's not

connected but there was an immediate

massive drop in the

uh in all frequencies across all the

bands and then the other was that the

delta was really

going up and up into the right for much

of the session and

delta is associated with deep sleep

but it's also

associated or what you would expect to

find in some kind of

cessation where there's um

you know the the mind isn't it's in a

very very calm or completely inactive

state

so thanks for that little demonstration

so my my understanding is that

what's been one of the things that's

been studied in the lab

is cessation which i think you mentioned

briefly at the beginning of our talk

um this lapse in experientially there's

no consciousness there there's just like

like a blank spot

and

you were able to go in

for an exact amount of time so like at

10 minutes you said i'll go into

cessation

you know they saw just a rapid decline

in brain activity and then at exactly

the 90 minute market booted up my

understanding is you can also go in

you've gone in for up to six days

so what is what is cessation and how

does this work exactly

yeah so when we talk about cessation

we're referring to a specific kind of

let's say non-experience because it's

not really an experience

but it it's

it's relating to what's known as

cessation of perception

and feeling and really that cessation of

perception

feeling and consciousness

what that means is

there's no more sensory data being

received even when the eyes are closed

you know you could still receive sensory

data through the ears or through the

nose or through feeling on on the body

or the mind might be active in thinking

about this or that or that might be some

kind of a mental constructive experience

or so on

but in the case of cessation of

perception feeling and consciousness all

of that goes away

so the my the year won't take in any

kind of sound waves

there won't be any smell being received

there won't be any kind of if you tap

the person they won't feel it

and tied to that there won't be any kind

of perception which means that there

won't be any kind of

recognition of what is going on

and consciousness what we're talking

about here is awareness so there's

completely like a blank you don't know

you were in that state

until you actually come out of it right

right and

i think you already alluded to this but

what is the benefit of

going into this advanced meditative

state

why would someone want to do this yeah

so first we have to understand that

there's two ways of looking at it

there's there's one way of where

somebody goes through the whole process

of the meditation

and they naturally experience cessation

of perception feeling and consciousness

and then there is something known as the

attainment of

of the cessation of perception feeling

in consciousness

the difference between the two is that

in the case of somebody who's meditating

their mind might shut off for maybe

a split second

don't really know how long it would have

been as soon as they come out of it

their mind is utterly pure this is what

we were called as being completely

unconditioned

and because all conditions have ceased

including consciousness so when the mind

comes back up again

any kind of contact any kind of spark

that arises

is unconditioned not caused by anything

that initial experience is an experience

of

nirvana or nibana

when we talk about nirvana nibana what

we're saying is you know near

it means fire

so there's no greed hatred or delusion

there there's no craving there's no

grasping

there's no aversion there there's no

identification with anything so that's

the unconditioned mind that's the

unconditioned mind

but it also means uh

vana also obama and vana also mean

forest

meaning there's no forest of conceptual

proliferation going on

there's nothing like being attitude you

know there's no groves there's no

there's no grass growing anywhere it's

just

right there in there pure mind

so that mind is completely unconditioned

that is the benefit of going to

cessation being able to then experience

as it war

uh nibana

and there's some kind of a shift that

occurs from that even before

full awakening right where yes just

having seen how the mind actually works

seeing it kind of boot back up to use a

computer analogy from

cessation there's some kind of uh you

can't unsee that now you really know how

mind works yes and this is what we refer

to as dependent origination

what we are seeing is how mind works in

terms of how it creates reality right

so subjectively everything that we

experience

is through the five physical senses and

the mind

so we are seeing afric coming out of

cessation how the mind creates its own

suffering

or how the mind creates craving whenever

there is some kind of a fuel for that

craving

so it gets really deep but what we're

talking about are these

percolations these proto thoughts that

arise give rising to giving rise

to concepts

and ideas that are projected onto an

experience

that can then give rise to full-blown

craving

clinging and then you know suffering

down the road

so we're seeing that in real time as

these things come up

and we're able to let them go

the thing is that mind is seeing it

without having to bring it up because

it's always happening it's actually

happening whether you know it or not

but now when you have this mind that is

so pure that it can see things

at that minute level

it's actually seeing oh this is what's

happening

now in the fully awakened mind it sees

it but there's no grasping on it before

that there's some level of grasping

whether that's some kind of craving

some kind of conceit or idea of a sense

of self or whatever it might be

but for the fully awakened mind there's

no kind of grasping of this is me this

is mine this is myself

it's just seeing it and that's it

no it's just completely equanimous

no feeling of relief or anything because

now it's just feeling relief

all the time

okay okay so you've

you kind of punctuate

that with certain

like a few times and eventually becomes

the default state yeah and then all the

time the mind is in this unconditioned

state where it's not

the dependent origination the chain of

causality doesn't

you know there's still like feelings

occurring and stuff

but it's not layering on top all this

craving and all this like ideas of how

the world should be or trying to grasp

after

experiences and whatever it is yeah so

basically what we're saying here is that

when you come out of cessation

perception feeling and consciousness

your mind is pure which means your mind

for that split second

is like the mind of an arahant is fully

awakened but what happens is

there is superimposed upon that some

kind of clinging of self they're

superimposed upon that like i want this

experience again yeah that's where the

craving arises

but if you let go of that completely

where those layers of abstraction are

gone

then that's it what had to be done has

been done yeah

i want to bring up a point here because

i think a lot of

meditation teachers today and spiritual

teachers

will say the cliche like be here some

version of like be here now or

you know it's all about being present

you know just

just be here it's you know it's that

easy but

it's not as we all know like it's

the mind naturally

just wants to get away from the present

moment and do all this

uh

filtration all this elaboration and

grasping

after the next moment wanting this

moment to be different than it is yeah

but that's so deeply ingrained that you

can't just tell yourself be here now

this is an actual training process that

you've described is that right that's

correct that's absolutely right because

that's a wandering mind so wandering

mind is a mind with craving

so when the mind wonders there's some

kind of agitation there's some kind of

craving that's happening

so the six hours that we talk about is a

process of deconditioning that wandering

mind

and then reconditioning so that it no

longer wonders

and it's here now as it were it's it's

always present as it were

but you also have to understand that

even being present or the notion of

being present even in the present moment

there can be an idea of

this is me i can still be

a central sort of

person

around the present moment

for the fully awakened mind that

completely dissolves as well

so if you talk about the present moment

it's just a concept in that sense

is there any sense of an experiencer

that's experiencing

there's only an experience going on

that's so radical i you know it's tough

to imagine yeah

yeah it is because everybody comes from

a sense of self like how could you take

away the sense of an experience and how

could there be just an experience

isn't there somebody actually observing

the experience

and no as the experience is happening

there is a knowing of that experience

this is what's known as the eye of

wisdom or the eye of dhamma right so

just being able to see things as they

are but there's no there's no grabbing

with the sense of i am experiencing it

it's just an experience

there is a knowing that this experience

arose because something led to that

experience

so it's actually just seeing dependent

origination all the time

up until the level of feeling

beyond that there's no craving and

before that there's no ignorance because

it's always

present

so if someone wanted to you know if

someone was inspired to start working

towards this this

uh

this training regimen you know you've

mentioned the 6rs that's something that

is taught here at damasuka i've also put

the 6rs on

the fitmind app and the

it's called the deep path module

so that's really like a meditation

practice that they can

undertake in in a sitting sense

but just in terms of going about their

day how might they start reconditioning

the mind

towards you know eventually that being

their default state

right so any kind of meditation but

specifically when we talk about

meditation here

it's about being collected

and being collected means that the mind

has sustained attention on one specific

object on one particular object that

doesn't mean that it's fully focused

doesn't mean that it's concentrated

doesn't mean that it's one pointed

what it means is that that that mind has

an anchor

to stay here

to stay here and now

and in the in the in the course of our

practice we use loving kindness as a

feeling as a psychosomatic feeling that

is experienced as loving-kindness or

compassion or joy or equanimity as we

progress

but that experience becomes the anchor

to the present right becomes an anchor

to being here and now

then

you know when you see that you're no

longer on your object is how you

decondition using the six r's right so i

think a lot of people are familiar with

using the breath as an object

but

here it's often taught you know in the

way in the tradition that you've

practiced

it's

uh and this is called the twin

meditation tranquil wisdom insight

meditation

the object is this

feeling of of good vibes of love and

kindness

and it's

it's naturally

it feels good for the mind to be with

that

i so that's one reason why i think it's

so effective and it also is kind of

conducive to this open awareness that's

really able to investigate reality as it

or experience as it is yes yes so that

six-hour process that we use is actually

developing wisdom

understanding and not getting caught up

in the distraction

uh not having any resistance to the

distraction

not trying to push away the distraction

we're not trying to suppress the

distraction we're recognizing oh

mind is no longer on its object mind is

distracted okay no big deal

release your attention from that relax

let go of the tightness and tension let

go of the craving come back to the smile

now the smile is so important here so

people can just start the meditation or

start coming into a meditative state if

they're just starting

is to stay with the smile because the

smile keeps the mind uplifted keeps it

light yeah keeps it joyful and playful

so it actually keeps it very present in

whatever is going on and you'll notice

when people ruminate

when people start to think about this or

that their smile goes away

right

so you come back to the smile and you

come back to your object

so this is the process and you can apply

the six hours anywhere it doesn't have

to be just meditation

if you notice that your mind starts to

pop up with all kinds of ideas resisting

to the present moment

not being happy with what's going on

or trying to change it in some way

or having a reactivity to somebody

saying something you can notice that

that's the recognized step you can

release your attention from that

you can relax in that moment

and come back to the smile or come back

to something that's more uplifting yeah

and then

respond with wisdom respond with

compassion respond with balance of mind

so the meditation is not just

formally sitting and

staying with your object

but it's also being aware of how mind's

attention moves from one thing to the

other this is what we say is the

definition of mindfulness right meaning

you're observing how your mind actually

works and that's where wisdom comes from

right right

so you're just observing without

interfering

you know it's an interesting point about

the smiling too because

if you just look around

at

people on the street or wherever it is a

restaurant that you're eating

you see so much tension in their face

and so much like for so many furrowed

brows and so much anger or like and you

can just tell that their mindset must be

one of filled with craving yeah

yeah

and you know you could help them by uh

trying to compliment on something or

just pass a joyful comment to them and

you see how their their eyes light up

and how they're happy this is this is

the true

understanding of meditation is that it's

not just

uh the sitting and walking and

everything else but it's how you

interact with people as well

yeah so loving kindness is not about

just feeling it but actually being able

to spread it through your actions

through your words

through your intentions

so if you can smile you'll notice that

people start to gravitate towards you

naturally yeah and they start to smile

around you and it's not something you

have to get out and go out of your own

way to do

it just naturally translate and

translates into situations and

circumstances

where people start to feel

that kind of energy around you yeah

yeah and you know the other point that

you made that i just wanted to

re-emphasize is that when you relax

you're feeling

the relief before

needing to satisfy whatever it is you

think you need to make you happy

so if it's the chocolate cake if you

just relax instead of

feeling tense and then needing to eat

the cake to finally relax if you just

relax that step of the six hours you

immediately feel just as good in fact

better because you're you know you're

not full of cake yeah

yeah and that's a very good point i mean

we talk about at a very extreme level

crimes of passion or people who do

something out of reactivity

it's just like a split second it's not

even decision it's just like they act

but if you can slow things down on on

the cognitive level

and realize that oh i'm starting to get

you know agitated about this

and relax and experience really in that

moment when you relax you're

experiencing relief which is also the

third normal truth of the cessation of

suffering right so your mind being free

of that craving free of that suffering

in that moment is wise

so you won't react you won't be reactive

to the situation or to the person you'll

actually

give that space

give that time for your mind to

take in all that information

because it's relaxed it can bring up

something that is wholesome

bring up something that is

the best outcome for that situation or

that person

in a sense i would i would think that

you know what you're doing is you're

giving your brain the space

so that the prefrontal cortex comes up

and is able to then really make a proper

judgment of things rather than just

immediately reacting right yeah you're

no longer a robot you're

responsive and uh aware of what's

happening

yeah it's a good way to put it so

are you ready for the traditional rapid

fire uh final section of the interview

let's do it

all right so uh

i know you're a big movie buff what's

your favorite movie of all time

star wars the empire strikes back and

i'll tell you why please

please please expand look i mean the

whole star wars trilogy is great right

but the empire strikes back is the first

time

you meet yoda

and that's the first time you get really

deep wisdom into

things that were

you know the jedi and the jedi order

were really inspired

from the ancient spiritual traditions

right specifically buddhism yeah so and

empire strikes back is just a great

movie yeah i mean just in terms of

cinematic appeal it's got a great story

great characters great script great

dialogue

all of those things

now it is difficult to choose one movie

but i would have to say since this is a

rapid fire that's the movie i would

choose

thank you for being so definitive

and uh

yeah i mean my understanding is yoda was

based off of either maharishi

mahashiyogi or

tibetan llama right um yeah was it

george lucas that was

yeah yeah yeah he clearly did a lot of

meditation and you know we we talk about

this here in the meditation as well

people you know you give advice to

people and you tell them this is what

you should try you should not try that's

the other thing this is what you should

do yeah and then they'll people will say

i'll try

yeah okay and that's i'll try my best

and that's when you say

there is no tragedy do or do not

yeah and that comes from the great

wisdom of yoda right so

yoda has some great lines that allow you

to know

you know like you know in in

in one of the movies he says he actually

talks about dependent origination

in some sense he says fear leads to

anger anger leads to hate

hate leads to suffering so he's showing

causality and conditionality

this leads to this this leads to that

let go of this and you let go of

suffering let go of this you let go of

hate and so on

so some great

great quotes by yoda smart yeah very

smart little afraid

yeah

see through you we can

be mindful of your feelings your

thoughts dwell on your mother

i miss her

afraid to lose her i think

what does that got to do with anything

everything

fear is the path to the dark side

fear leads to anger anger leads to hate

hate

leads to suffering

[Music]

um

what's something people might be

surprised to learn about you

uh that i was a screenwriter uh before i

got into the meditative tradition

and i actually uh

you know optioned well some of my

screenplays were optioned by some really

interesting celebrities

so

matt damon right didn't he buy one of

you matt damon robert de niro a few

other people yeah so any idea when that

might be coming out there

you never know with these things i mean

when it comes to the movies uh it can

take anywhere from 10 to 15 years for a

movie to come out because there's so

much stuff to do in pre-production but

that that particular uh script

was optioned uh back in 2000

uh

i'd say 2011 or 12 and then the other

one 2013 so

any minute now okay all right i'll

decide a calendar reminder to check back

in a few years uh

what what's one thing that you'd change

about the world today

what's one thing i would change about

the world today yeah as far as i guess i

should be more specific like

um

in terms of

i guess geopolitically or kind of just

in terms of what people are doing with

their lives

maybe that's a better better way to

phrase it well the way i would look at

it is

that's just their karma

yeah you know

so the way people react to situations

whether it's on a geopolitical scale or

climate change and all of these things

this is why we're here is to experience

all of this

so

in my mind things are okay

things are fine it's just causes and

conditions but we have some kind of

free will is a hairy topic but yeah

there's some kind of decision there are

decisions being made right

uh

and if people were to slow down as you

described and use this process of kind

of retraining the mind and being more

aware yeah that might naturally change a

lot of things don't you think yeah so i

think one thing we should change is

probably get twimmed to every single

global leader yeah

like right away right away

yeah i couldn't agree more

um and then finally what's a place you'd

like to visit most in the world

well i think a place i would like to

revisit again would be back in the

himalayas going to the cave

you know and chill there

wonderful um

and you know also throw it out for

those listening that you're doing this

kind of world tour and you're booked

through

i think through like 2023 now yeah

you you know if they

i guess if they live in a major city or

somewhere at the meditation center they

could you could probably be in touch

with uh

yeah so they should get in touch with uh

uh sutawata

and send an email to info

dot foundation

right uh or just go to the go to the

website sudavada.foundation

and then if they're interested they can

contact

the people there so you've got

india

next uh

for september through

like november four retreats there then

malaysia bali sfla so yeah so i got

india and then malaysia and then

indonesia so i'll be in jakarta for a

couple of days and i'll be in bali for a

few days

and then from there

i'll be going to san francisco

i have

time spent over here at damasuca

for at least three or four months so

that's going to hurt in missouri

and then also something going on in l.a

then from there i'm going to

uh europe

so i'll be in the uk uh possibly

netherlands belgium

possibly italy yeah um

and then who knows where else and then

australia is another option at the end

of 2023. and can people find these on a

website somewhere where would they sign

up for their retreats okay so there's a

couple of places one would be uh

damasuka would have it damasuka.org

sutavara.foundation and now

you know sudavara has actually created a

new website

uh which is sort of just my kind of

calling card and that's uh delson

armstrong

dot info oh nice you're a dot info now

yeah i'm a dot info

now uh great so i'll put all those links

in the show notes and um

yeah i also just want to give you a

chance to

to plug oh and also put a link to your

patreon page which we're going to make

soon and then

um i just wanted to give you a chance to

plug your work as far as uh

you know where can people find your your

books yeah on amazon right so mine

without craving is on amazon it's

available for

a free download on the sutawata webpage

and it's also available for

download free download on the delson

armstrong dot info page but it'll be

available on

it is available on amazon as paperback

as hardcover and as kindle and here it

is shameless plug buy it now or download

it free on yeah those sites i told you

you know and i should also mention that

everything

all of delson's teaching is for free and

it's donation based yeah so i mean that

model is i think kind of rare in in the

world today and so he really

uh yeah i mean if you could support

delson on on patreon

if you

think what he does is useful for the

world that would be uh just a great act

of generosity so anyway delson this has

been an absolute pleasure thanks for

coming on the fitment podcast thank you

i had fun as always